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Post by OziRiS on Jul 20, 2014 0:32:47 GMT
I don't think the truck was carrying past date melons, so if we're going to replicate the circumstances, we'll have to use fresh ones. Anything else could be subject to scrutiny and rightly so, since that would be altering a possibly major contributing factor to the situation.
Past date melons could hold significantly less moisture and the rinds could be compromised in advance by molding, both of which are factors that will more than likely change how the melons react to heat.
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 0:39:37 GMT
I don't think the truck was carrying past date melons, so if we're going to replicate the circumstances, we'll have to use fresh ones. Anything else could be subject to scrutiny and rightly so, since that would be altering a possibly major contributing factor to the situation. Past date melons could hold significantly less moisture and the rinds could be compromised in advance by molding, both of which are factors that will more than likely change how the melons react to heat. however, for doing the pile of melons, some of them would only need to be there, not be prime candidates for explosion. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 20, 2014 0:53:52 GMT
I don't think the truck was carrying past date melons, so if we're going to replicate the circumstances, we'll have to use fresh ones. Anything else could be subject to scrutiny and rightly so, since that would be altering a possibly major contributing factor to the situation. Past date melons could hold significantly less moisture and the rinds could be compromised in advance by molding, both of which are factors that will more than likely change how the melons react to heat. however, for doing the pile of melons, some of them would only need to be there, not be prime candidates for explosion. No, but they still have to both retain and transfer heat in the same way as the ones in the original incident, or you would never be able to call the myth busted if nothing happened. Problem is we can make assumptions about which ones are more likely to explode, but we don't know for certain. Maybe the ones at the top go because of the heat alone. Maybe the ones in the middle go because that's the butterzone. Or maybe it's the ones in the bottom that go because of the combination of heat from the fire below and pressure from the other melons above. We don't know, so we can't say which ones are okay to switch out with past due melons and which ones aren't. If we can't get the single melon to explode on its own, the initial pile experiment has to be done with fresh melons all the way through the pile to be viable. If we then achieve explosion, we can use the past dues in the subsequent tests to find out why, doing three tests with one fresh melon at the bottom, the middle and the top of a pile of bad ones to find out if it's only the heat that does the trick or if the weight of the surrounding melons is a critical factor. If explosion can't be achieved in either of those tests, we can then summize that bad melons don't transfer heat in the same way as fresh ones. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 1:05:02 GMT
however, for doing the pile of melons, some of them would only need to be there, not be prime candidates for explosion. No, but they still have to both retain and transfer heat in the same way as the ones in the original incident, or you would never be able to call the myth busted if nothing happened. Problem is we can make assumptions about which ones are more likely to explode, but we don't know for certain. Maybe the ones at the top go because of the heat alone. Maybe the ones in the middle go because that's the butterzone. Or maybe it's the ones in the bottom that go because of the combination of heat from the fire below and pressure from the other melons above. We don't know, so we can't say which ones are okay to switch out with past due melons and which ones aren't. If we can't get the single melon to explode on its own, the initial pile experiment has to be done with fresh melons all the way through the pile to be viable. If we then achieve explosion, we can use the past dues in the subsequent tests to find out why, doing three tests with one fresh melon at the bottom, the middle and the top of a pile of bad ones to find out if it's only the heat that does the trick or if the weight of the surrounding melons is a critical factor. If explosion can't be achieved in either of those tests, we can then summize that bad melons don't transfer heat in the same way as fresh ones. well, in that case they need to redo the water heater fire extinguisher test, because they can't say a water heater exploded by overpressurization with air explodes exactly the same as one which exploded because the thermostat got stuck and the T&P failed. they can intersperse perfectly fresh melons with melons that have been pulled from the store shelves because they are no longer perfectly fresh - who knows - they may find the not so fresh melons to be the ones that explode. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 20, 2014 1:24:15 GMT
No, but they still have to both retain and transfer heat in the same way as the ones in the original incident, or you would never be able to call the myth busted if nothing happened. Problem is we can make assumptions about which ones are more likely to explode, but we don't know for certain. Maybe the ones at the top go because of the heat alone. Maybe the ones in the middle go because that's the butterzone. Or maybe it's the ones in the bottom that go because of the combination of heat from the fire below and pressure from the other melons above. We don't know, so we can't say which ones are okay to switch out with past due melons and which ones aren't. If we can't get the single melon to explode on its own, the initial pile experiment has to be done with fresh melons all the way through the pile to be viable. If we then achieve explosion, we can use the past dues in the subsequent tests to find out why, doing three tests with one fresh melon at the bottom, the middle and the top of a pile of bad ones to find out if it's only the heat that does the trick or if the weight of the surrounding melons is a critical factor. If explosion can't be achieved in either of those tests, we can then summize that bad melons don't transfer heat in the same way as fresh ones. well, in that case they need to redo the water heater fire extinguisher test, because they can't say a water heater exploded by overpressurization with air explodes exactly the same as one which exploded because the thermostat got stuck and the T&P failed. No they don't. They know exactly what makes a water heater explode from previous tests and just perfected the system to make it explode on command. It was still filled with hot water and it still exploded because of overpressurization. Besides, they weren't testing whether or not a water heater can explode. They were testing whether or not it could put out a fire when it does. they can intersperse perfectly fresh melons with melons that have been pulled from the store shelves because they are no longer perfectly fresh - who knows - they may find the not so fresh melons to be the ones that explode. Not at all out of the question, but since there's a very high probability the trailer wasn't full of old melons, any failure to produce an explosion from old ones will result in "you did it wrong". I'm just trying to get ahead of that. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 4:39:19 GMT
well, in that case they need to redo the water heater fire extinguisher test, because they can't say a water heater exploded by overpressurization with air explodes exactly the same as one which exploded because the thermostat got stuck and the T&P failed. No they don't. They know exactly what makes a water heater explode from previous tests and just perfected the system to make it explode on command. It was still filled with hot water and it still exploded because of overpressurization. Besides, they weren't testing whether or not a water heater can explode. They were testing whether or not it could put out a fire when it does. they can intersperse perfectly fresh melons with melons that have been pulled from the store shelves because they are no longer perfectly fresh - who knows - they may find the not so fresh melons to be the ones that explode. Not at all out of the question, but since there's a very high probability the trailer wasn't full of old melons, any failure to produce an explosion from old ones will result in "you did it wrong". I'm just trying to get ahead of that. we're not at the discovery site. we don't get overrun with "U did it rong becuz U didnt get teh result's I wantid!!!1!" |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 20, 2014 8:59:34 GMT
Over-ripe melons go soft.
In the case of heating them, they have no skin rigidity, they would just "Melt"?...
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 14:09:00 GMT
Over-ripe melons go soft. In the case of heating them, they have no skin rigidity, they would just "Melt"?... but here, they usually get pulled from the shelves before they get that bad. to the point - one of the carpenters I worked with raised pigs one year - he fed them with produce his local grocer pulled from the shelves as being unfit for sale. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 20, 2014 21:38:29 GMT
No they don't. They know exactly what makes a water heater explode from previous tests and just perfected the system to make it explode on command. It was still filled with hot water and it still exploded because of overpressurization. Besides, they weren't testing whether or not a water heater can explode. They were testing whether or not it could put out a fire when it does. Not at all out of the question, but since there's a very high probability the trailer wasn't full of old melons, any failure to produce an explosion from old ones will result in "you did it wrong". I'm just trying to get ahead of that. we're not at the discovery site. we don't get overrun with "U did it rong becuz U didnt get teh result's I wantid!!!1!" We might not get it here, but they'll be flooded with it on their Fakebook and Twitter accounts. Besides, they've spent more money on less spectacular things before, so I don't even see why it's such a problem. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 20, 2014 21:49:52 GMT
we're not at the discovery site. we don't get overrun with "U did it rong becuz U didnt get teh result's I wantid!!!1!" We might not get it here, but they'll be flooded with it on their Fakebook and Twitter accounts. Besides, they've spent more money on less spectacular things before, so I don't even see why it's such a problem. it avoids the "you're wasting food" contention. - their best test would be to individually test melons in multiple stages of ripeness, and then do a crate with a mixture of melons. (I.E. include both under and over ripe melons) |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 20, 2014 22:07:37 GMT
Its a problem not because of the cost, but because of the wastage of otherwise edible food. This is something that many fans, and indeed it seems the MB themselves, would seriously object to.
Yes, they have used fruit stands for a car myth in the past. But in that case they made a point of noting that all of the fruit used had been condemned.
Here we have a problem in that using out of date melons may not be suitable for the myth, since the melons it was carrying would have been fresh produce intended for supermarkets not out of date stock. And older melons may behave very differently when heated.
Being Mythbusters they would want to end with a full sized test, by which of course I mean setting fire to a trailer. There is no way they would want to fill even a small trailer with fresh melons because that is a heck of a lot of good food you are destroying for no reason other than entertainment.
It is this wastage that is the problem, not helped by viable reasons to suspect that out of date melons might not react the same way as fresh melons - and it is reasonable to assume that the truck in question was carrying produce for sale in stores not removing older produce.
Small scale testing would, of course, give some idea as to how melons of different ages are likely to react - ideally exactly the same, although this is unlikely. But when planning episodes they usually start with a reasonable idea as the types of tests they will be carrying out, something they obviously need to do ahead of time. Here they'd be relying on the small scale tests to show them what might be possible for the 'big finish', and this is just not a practical way for them to go.
That is the problems that need to be overcome; How to do a full scale test (duplicating the conditions of the story) without wasting a lot of good food and regardless of what the small scale testing turns up.
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Post by OziRiS on Jul 20, 2014 22:42:04 GMT
Its a problem not because of the cost, but because of the wastage of otherwise edible food. This is something that many fans, and indeed it seems the MB themselves, would seriously object to. Yes, they have used fruit stands for a car myth in the past. But in that case they made a point of noting that all of the fruit used had been condemned. Here we have a problem in that using out of date melons may not be suitable for the myth, since the melons it was carrying would have been fresh produce intended for supermarkets not out of date stock. And older melons may behave very differently when heated. Being Mythbusters they would want to end with a full sized test, by which of course I mean setting fire to a trailer. There is no way they would want to fill even a small trailer with fresh melons because that is a heck of a lot of good food you are destroying for no reason other than entertainment. It is this wastage that is the problem, not helped by viable reasons to suspect that out of date melons might not react the same way as fresh melons - and it is reasonable to assume that the truck in question was carrying produce for sale in stores not removing older produce. Small scale testing would, of course, give some idea as to how melons of different ages are likely to react - ideally exactly the same, although this is unlikely. But when planning episodes they usually start with a reasonable idea as the types of tests they will be carrying out, something they obviously need to do ahead of time. Here they'd be relying on the small scale tests to show them what might be possible for the 'big finish', and this is just not a practical way for them to go. That is the problems that need to be overcome; How to do a full scale test (duplicating the conditions of the story) without wasting a lot of good food and regardless of what the small scale testing turns up. And I've addressed all of those things so far. I don't want them to waste perfectly good food either, if there's no reason to do so, which is why I said they should start with single melons (not-yet-ripe, ripe and over-ripe, respectively) and see if they get a result. If they do, then there's no reason to fill a truck with fresh produce, because they already know from the small scale tests what's needed to set one off and which type is best (remember, we're only assuming that fresh melons are more likely to yield a result, but we may be surprised when it's actually tested). The only reason to use more than a couple of fresh melons is if the single melon tests don't yield any results. That's where my 3x3x6 foot box comes into play, to test if chimney effect makes a difference. Fill that with fresh melons and, while they're still wasting edible food, at least they're not wasting an entire trailer full. If that gives off a result, they should be able to sift through the pile and determine where they went off. They then try it again with discarded melons beneath and above the butterzone to figure out if there's a difference in heat transfer for the different stages of ripeness. If there isn't, they can go ahead and fill the trailer for the big finish with over-ripe melons, only placing a layer of fresh ones (if those are indeed the best) in the determined butterzone. This way, while they may have wasted edible food, they've at least not wasted more than necessary to get viable results. |
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Post by the light works on Jul 21, 2014 2:01:36 GMT
it would be fortuitous if a truckload of melons got condemned for reasons other than spoilage, at an opportune time. - not to be wishing ill on anyone.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 21, 2014 8:38:24 GMT
That could be problematical.
Trailers at rest are not the same as trailers in use....
Air lines and reservoirs drain the instant they are disconnected, number of wheels and tyre arrangement, plus some trailers having air suspension, and the crew would have to rig a Cab replacement... no ons suggests they set fire to a full rig do they?...
Plus with the air suspension issue, which is one favoured by "Delicate" produce, it may be wise to check what type of trailer was in use.
Plus the type of melon storage... was it wooden crate, was it plastic tray, or was the whole thing a Tipper truck bulk transport type.
Some research needs to be done, there is a difference in trailers, and in this case, it matters.
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Post by the light works on Jul 21, 2014 14:20:08 GMT
That could be problematical. Trailers at rest are not the same as trailers in use.... Air lines and reservoirs drain the instant they are disconnected, number of wheels and tyre arrangement, plus some trailers having air suspension, and the crew would have to rig a Cab replacement... no ons suggests they set fire to a full rig do they?... Plus with the air suspension issue, which is one favoured by "Delicate" produce, it may be wise to check what type of trailer was in use. Plus the type of melon storage... was it wooden crate, was it plastic tray, or was the whole thing a Tipper truck bulk transport type. Some research needs to be done, there is a difference in trailers, and in this case, it matters. not so hard: it was a two axle reefer - air ride is pretty much the default suspension, here. that leaves confirming the melons were in cardboard skids. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 21, 2014 14:44:57 GMT
They would probably not want to (or be allowed to) actually set fire to a trailer that has all the various bits of equipment etc still on it - this is more of a legal issue than a safety one, I think for example setting the tires on fire would break half a dozen laws.
Not that this would need to happen anyway. The claim is that the melons exploded, and as such the full scale test would just need a large container/space similar in size to the one in the story and ideally constructed in the same or similar manner. This would also be safer, as they don't have to worry about anything else exploding.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 22, 2014 6:39:18 GMT
Hence "It was melons exploding"....
Refer... Fridge on wheels in non trucker language... Cold deliveries or temp controlled deliveries.
And I bet the workings were old enough to contain CFC's?.....
Cardboard skids, no, not in a refer... cardboard box inside a roll cage maybe, but cardboard, unless on a wooden pallet, is a bugger to get off the was wet steel now frozen floor... sticks like glue.
So we have a number of explosions, one of them being the refrigeration unit retiring, permanently, double axle so probably eight tyres, four Bandag air bags (Two per axle) maybe an air tank for the suspension, and other assorted bits of wagon.
No the authorities will not allow you to burn a Fridge. (Refer in you lingo)
Burning tyres, also a no no.
Burning the wood from the trailer bed (Even if it has a steel skin) also not allowed, as it may have at some point had Hazardous cargo spill. (Some Refrigerated vans are retro fit to normal box vans)
As Mrs Cyber said, building a "Model" would be enough.... replica enough to show it was equipment not Melons.
And by that stage, they would have already taken one melon and put it over an open flame to prove it didnt just explode?...
Has anyone ever tried "Egg in a microwave" with a Melon as a replacement?... (For the egg... )(I know someone will try to think cooking a egg in a melon there...)
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Post by the light works on Jul 22, 2014 8:14:43 GMT
Hence "It was melons exploding".... Refer... Fridge on wheels in non trucker language... Cold deliveries or temp controlled deliveries. And I bet the workings were old enough to contain CFC's?..... Cardboard skids, no, not in a refer... cardboard box inside a roll cage maybe, but cardboard, unless on a wooden pallet, is a bugger to get off the was wet steel now frozen floor... sticks like glue. So we have a number of explosions, one of them being the refrigeration unit retiring, permanently, double axle so probably eight tyres, four Bandag air bags (Two per axle) maybe an air tank for the suspension, and other assorted bits of wagon. No the authorities will not allow you to burn a Fridge. (Refer in you lingo) Burning tyres, also a no no. Burning the wood from the trailer bed (Even if it has a steel skin) also not allowed, as it may have at some point had Hazardous cargo spill. (Some Refrigerated vans are retro fit to normal box vans) As Mrs Cyber said, building a "Model" would be enough.... replica enough to show it was equipment not Melons. And by that stage, they would have already taken one melon and put it over an open flame to prove it didnt just explode?... Has anyone ever tried "Egg in a microwave" with a Melon as a replacement?... (For the egg... )(I know someone will try to think cooking a egg in a melon there...) 1: cardboard skid is built on a pallet. 2: most refers here don't have wood floors - nor do box trailers 3: melons would not be turned down to freezing. 4: but CAN you cook an egg in a melon? |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 23, 2014 6:49:54 GMT
Cardboard skid has pallet under it, but here, the pallet is made from reinforced recycled cardboard.
(Most of those cardboard pallets are designed one use only?... disposable.... unwrapped and left as point of sale on the shop floor, minimal handling for transport.
Some refers do, some dont have wood floors, box trailers either are or are not wood floor.
The melons are not frozen, but to cool them on hot days, the fridge unit starts off on full..... same as Frozen....
Where is the heat source inside a Melon?... man can not cook by melon alone.
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Post by the light works on Jul 23, 2014 14:29:56 GMT
Cardboard skid has pallet under it, but here, the pallet is made from reinforced recycled cardboard. (Most of those cardboard pallets are designed one use only?... disposable.... unwrapped and left as point of sale on the shop floor, minimal handling for transport. Some refers do, some dont have wood floors, box trailers either are or are not wood floor. The melons are not frozen, but to cool them on hot days, the fridge unit starts off on full..... same as Frozen.... Where is the heat source inside a Melon?... man can not cook by melon alone. here, the pallets are made from whatever trash wood comes from the local mill - they will have a sheet of cardboard for the floor, but pallets are now essentially disposable - and it is still cheaper to make them from scrap wood than to divert recycled paper for them. interestingly, most of our trailer manufacturers have left off using wood for trailer floors, unless they expect high levels of abuse. an aluminum deck lasts as long as the trailer, as long as you aren't chewing it up, whereas wood WILL wear. our refer trailers don't have a throttle - they are cooling or not, they will load the produce from a refrigerated warehouse to the trailer, start the refer up, and go. (one carpenter I work with spent time working at a shipping warehouse for frozen food) decomposition? do we have a side myth, here? (edit: cooking an egg in a melon assumed an outside heat source) |
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