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Post by silverdragon on Feb 27, 2015 11:06:56 GMT
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 27, 2015 22:21:39 GMT
This one's especially for TLW
Some things are best left to a professional.
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Post by the light works on Feb 27, 2015 23:00:31 GMT
This one's especially for TLW
Some things are best left to a professional. so, somehow he got the ceiling light where he decided he didn't need a vent fan in his bathroom connected in series with the switch/plug cluster by the sink. I am guessing an older house with star wiring topography, with power going to the fan, and the a switch drop by the door and a power drop to either the switch or the vanity light. somehow he managed to NOT hook it up so hitting the switch at the door shorted it out. I think I see one way it could have been done. my usual response to this is to strip out ALL the fixtures and devices and identify all the wires, and then rebuild the installation. then of course, when they start having mildew problems from lack of ventilation... |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 28, 2015 14:38:11 GMT
I can almost guarantee thats the old favourite "Borrow a neutral" problem, someone has tapped into the wiring, not chased it back, and has made a ring main out of a spur.
Just how the (beep) they have managed to tap a Plug outlet into the Lighting circuit, which everyone should know should be separate, I have no idea.
Well, I do, but it should be in the how stupid can you be thread?...
But yes, a little knowledge was definitely a dangerous thing...
I can see days of fuses being blown and tempers fraying as the genuine sparkie traces that one out.
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 15:53:20 GMT
I can almost guarantee thats the old favourite "Borrow a neutral" problem, someone has tapped into the wiring, not chased it back, and has made a ring main out of a spur. Just how the (beep) they have managed to tap a Plug outlet into the Lighting circuit, which everyone should know should be separate, I have no idea. Well, I do, but it should be in the how stupid can you be thread?... But yes, a little knowledge was definitely a dangerous thing... I can see days of fuses being blown and tempers fraying as the genuine sparkie traces that one out. in a certain vintage of house, it was common for the @$%$s to pull the bathroom plug off a 1500W general lighting circuit. later the rule was set that it could not be on less than a 2KW circuit, and recently the rule was made that the 2KW circuit could ONLY serve bathroom receptacles. - which I think was a step backwards, since now we have @$%#$s putting 5½ bathrooms on one circuit. as for this problem, I have drawn up two possibles of how this could have been miswired, just from taking apart wires there was no need to take apart and putting them back together wrong. (you have no logical way of knowing how frequently I get called to "I changed out a light fixture and now it doesn't work" service calls to find they have separated every connection in a major junction box instead of just the two that the fixture was connected to) to me it is the equivalent of disassembling your computer to plug in a different printer. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 28, 2015 16:06:59 GMT
It appears to me that all he did was wire the two switches in parallel and then connected the GFI outlet across one of the switches.
A friend of ours recently purchased an older home. The previous owner told him that he had upgraded the electrical system. Turns out his idea of upgrade was just replacing all the 15 amp breakers with 20s.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 28, 2015 16:25:21 GMT
My Major problem there is the outlet of any kind inside a "Wet Room"...
In UK, and therefore probably greater europe as well, only "shaver" sockets for double isolated low voltage items are allowed on the inside of a wet room, bathroom or toilet.
So how the (beep) did they get a hair-dryer to work inside a bathroom?...
Parallel, yes that a possibility, the switch "inside" was probably the on/off isolator switch for a switched socket?.... I didnt see if it was an extra light switch on its own, the camera angle was that bad.
I can only guess at the wiring, as I do not know for sure.
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 16:30:53 GMT
It appears to me that all he did was wire the two switches in parallel and then connected the GFI outlet across one of the switches. A friend of ours recently purchased an older home. The previous owner told him that he had upgraded the electrical system. Turns out his idea of upgrade was just replacing all the 15 amp breakers with 20s. parallel connection would not have had the light get brighter with both switches on than just the vanity on. the diagram I figured out essentially has the vanity cluster connected around the switch, so the overhead light acts as the circuit path for the vanity light and the GFCI. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 28, 2015 16:31:48 GMT
SD- n the US, more recent homes always had outlets in the bathrooms. Now they are all required to be GFi outlets or powered by a GFI breaker in the entrance box.
TLW- I think you are correct.It's hard to tell how the system used to be in that video. I'm thinking the switch by the door probably turned on the lights over the mirror. And the switch by the sink turned on the exhaust fan. He replaced the exhaust fan with a lighting fixture.
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 16:39:55 GMT
My Major problem there is the outlet of any kind inside a "Wet Room"... In UK, and therefore probably greater europe as well, only "shaver" sockets for double isolated low voltage items are allowed on the inside of a wet room, bathroom or toilet. So how the (beep) did they get a hair-dryer to work inside a bathroom?... Parallel, yes that a possibility, the switch "inside" was probably the on/off isolator switch for a switched socket?.... I didnt see if it was an extra light switch on its own, the camera angle was that bad. I can only guess at the wiring, as I do not know for sure. we don't have that rule. partially because our mains voltage is only 120V, so there is less shock risk. we require them to be protected by GFCI devices, but we require there to be one with in a cord's reach of any sink (washbasin) for running the hair dryer. my best understanding of the layout is that there was a switch next to the door on the wall side which originally turned on the ventilation fan, and then a switch and receptacle clustered together next to the sink that turned on a light over the mirror. as I said in my first comment, there were more issues than just their wiring mess. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 16:42:05 GMT
SD- n the US, more recent homes always had outlets in the bathrooms. Now they are all required to be GFi outlets or powered by a GFI breaker in the entrance box. TLW- I think you are correct.It's hard to tell how the system used to be in that video. I'm thinking the switch by the door probably turned on the lights over the mirror. And the switch by the sink turned on the exhaust fan. He replaced the exhaust fan with a lighting fixture. I think the switch by the door did the fan. which is poor layout, but people do that. if it is an old house, it is even possible it originally turned on a ceiling light, and the previous remodeler installed a fan because the bathroom kept getting mildew. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 28, 2015 16:47:01 GMT
That's definitely a possibility too. What I question, is why you would upgrade a bathroom by removing the fan. It's usually the other way around.
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 16:58:48 GMT
That's definitely a possibility too. What I question, is why you would upgrade a bathroom by removing the fan. It's usually the other way around. some people have no comprehension... addendum: and if the fan they removed was the cheapie that a lot of contractors were installing, it was probablly inadequate to the task, anyway - which would make it seem to make no difference. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 28, 2015 17:01:55 GMT
The fan could have become noisy and old, perhaps they have updated that fan to one that comes on with the light and has a delay timer to stay on [3/5/10] mins after the light goes out...(As ours does)(its also super-quiet...)
The light dimming has much to say about the wires used, I suspect thin (lighting) wiring is working as a resistor on the circuit somewhere.
Warm walls.... oh crud....
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 28, 2015 17:05:48 GMT
It would have to be awfully thin wire to dim a single light. I think TLW was correct, the two lighting ficttures were being wired in series.
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 17:09:52 GMT
The fan could have become noisy and old, perhaps they have updated that fan to one that comes on with the light and has a delay timer to stay on [3/5/10] mins after the light goes out...(As ours does)(its also super-quiet...) The light dimming has much to say about the wires used, I suspect thin (lighting) wiring is working as a resistor on the circuit somewhere. Warm walls.... oh crud.... no, they said they took the fan out. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 28, 2015 17:22:35 GMT
The fan could have become noisy and old, perhaps they have updated that fan to one that comes on with the light and has a delay timer to stay on [3/5/10] mins after the light goes out...(As ours does)(its also super-quiet...) The light dimming has much to say about the wires used, I suspect thin (lighting) wiring is working as a resistor on the circuit somewhere. Warm walls.... oh crud.... no, they said they took the fan out. That explains a lot.... I can now make an educated guestimate... Who knows, I may even be close to right here, but what do you think to this?... The original fan was set to detect " any" electrical usage in the bathroom, either by Light, or by Socket, and by that switch on and ventilate. (Maybe it even has some kind of relay involved..) I have seen those systems in use.... I therefore also guesstimate that all they have done is disconnect the fan and wire a light, black to black, red to red and blew to bloody pieces.... Sometimes a simple swap is not that simple. Although, I am wondering, what happened to the original light?... Was it possibly a light and fan all in one unit?... |
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 28, 2015 17:24:41 GMT
no, they said they took the fan out. That explains a lot.... I can now make an educated guestimate... Who knows, I may even be close to right here, but what do you think to this?... The original fan was set to detect " any" electrical usage in the bathroom, either by Light, or by Socket, and by that switch on and ventilate. (Maybe it even has some kind of relay involved..) I have seen those systems in use.... I therefore also guesstimate that all they have done is disconnect the fan and wire a light, black to black, red to red and blew to bloody pieces.... Sometimes a simple swap is not that simple. I have never seen a fan like that. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 28, 2015 17:47:02 GMT
That explains a lot.... I can now make an educated guestimate... Who knows, I may even be close to right here, but what do you think to this?... The original fan was set to detect " any" electrical usage in the bathroom, either by Light, or by Socket, and by that switch on and ventilate. (Maybe it even has some kind of relay involved..) I have seen those systems in use.... I therefore also guesstimate that all they have done is disconnect the fan and wire a light, black to black, red to red and blew to bloody pieces.... Sometimes a simple swap is not that simple. I have never seen a fan like that. seems to me like a high tech solution to a low tech problem. which is to say it is very close to the system in my brother's beach house. however, in this case, silver, no, you are badly overthinking it. it is not a simple miswire - more of an advance miswire, but still just a miswire, not an advanced control system running amok. |
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Post by kharnynb on Feb 28, 2015 20:08:06 GMT
in finland, wet rooms can only have type F sockets, that are both earthed and have a residual current device on that cirquit.(this is needed as many finnish bathrooms contain the washing machine as well.
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