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Post by rmc on Jan 23, 2015 0:36:38 GMT
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 23, 2015 1:39:13 GMT
And will a slightly under inflated ball cause you to win 45 to 7? Got to wonder what the score would have been if they let all the air out.
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2015 6:50:04 GMT
And will a slightly under inflated ball cause you to win 45 to 7? Got to wonder what the score would have been if they let all the air out. I think some of the opposing team have said the underinflated balls didn't make that much difference on the outcome. - but for the topic at hand, they did helium football, so underinflated football would be something testable. question is what would they do to test it? |
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 23, 2015 7:08:07 GMT
I can see how if you were to train regularly with a ball that was under inflated compared to a fully inflated ball you might gain an advantage over an opponent that was used to a regualtion ball.
My Rugby team plays on one of only 2 artificial pitches in the league, and the ball there does bounce slightly differently, sometimes it gives us an advantage when an opposition team kicks the ball and it goes into touch when on a grass pitch with real mud it might slow down more and not cross the line.
I know they are different sports, but I just use this as an example of how sometimes a small thing can give an advantage.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 23, 2015 8:54:54 GMT
Football, or to you yanks Soccer, I knew a coach who "Swears by" under-inflated balls when teaching penalty kicks, because the balls dont fly off that hard (or far) as he says....
As a Kid, I was the one who hated football.
But, I cant see how?...
But I do know that as a kid an under-inflated ball wouldnt bounce as much, it was playing with a "dead" ball....
But then again, if you have ever gone up for a header and met a full "lacey" in the laces, thats the old leather laced up footballs that were about when I was young, you know what the puffs of wind they play with now are for....
Laceys HURT.
Catching?...
I suppose a fully inflated ball will be harder to catch, until you know what you are doing.
Two teams, one experienced with under-inflated balls and the difference in handling, I will say that that may have an edge about it?...
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2015 15:05:20 GMT
the two primary differences are that it has a bit more squish - so it is easier to get your hand around and squeeze; and when it hits your hands, it won't be trying so hard to bounce away while you are trying to get a grip on it.
(as I recall, the team on the offense provides their own ball until they either score or lose possession)
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 23, 2015 15:33:29 GMT
(as I recall, the team on the offense provides their own ball until they either score or lose possession) That's something I didn't know until this recent incident. I would think that if both teams used the same ball, it would cut down on the possibility of these types of shenanigans. You have the same kind of claims of bat fixing in baseball because everyone uses different sets of bats. That I can somewhat understand,but a football should be a football should be a football. Same ball for everyone and the NFL should provide the game balls. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2015 15:52:31 GMT
(as I recall, the team on the offense provides their own ball until they either score or lose possession) That's something I didn't know until this recent incident. I would think that if both teams used the same ball, it would cut down on the possibility of these types of shenanigans. You have the same kind of claims of bat fixing in baseball because everyone uses different sets of bats. That I can somewhat understand,but a football should be a football should be a football. Same ball for everyone and the NFL should provide the game balls. I only know it because of my standby duty at my local high school home games. I would be inclined to agree that at that level, it should be like baseball - balls provided by the organization & managed by the officiating staff. |
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Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 23, 2015 16:19:52 GMT
For those of you not on Twitter, here's what Dan Tapster posted yesterday: For those of you who don't follow American football: during the AFC championship game between the New England Patriots and the Indianapolis Colts, a Colt player who intercepted a Patriot pass didn't think the ball felt right and turned it over to a NFL rep on the sidelines. Upon testing, it was discovered that out of the 12 footballs being used by the Patriots, 11 were underinflated by two pounds. The claim is that the Patriots tampered with the balls after inspection to give themselves an advantage in the game. A softer ball would be easier to grip in the weather conditions those teams were playing in. Obviously, J&A can't test whether the underinflation was deliberate. But whether the underinflation would make any difference, and how noticeable it would be, should be testable. First off, have a link to the NFL rulebook. Footballs are supposed to be inflated to between 12.5 and 13.5 pounds per square inch. Since I doubt the NFL is going to tell the show what the Patriots' footballs tested at during pre-game checks, I'd suggest using 13.0 PSI as the baseline. Inflate some balls to 13.0, and some to 11.0. Other inflation levels to be determined -- depending on how the testing is going, it could be funny to run a few tests with a ball inflated to 5.0 or less. Hopefully the guys still have the football-throwing machine from "Helium Football" - I know it was used in a build team myth, but I don't know how much storage space was lost with M7's shutdown. Since this started off with an intercepted pass, start off with performance testing between a properly-inflated ball and an underinflated one. Do the underinflated balls have the same range and accuracy as the properly-inflated ones? Testing how well the balls can be held ... they might need to borrow some actual football players for this one. Run some standard drills, with one player carrying the ball and the others trying to grab it away. Patriot quarterback Tom Brady is taking a certain amount of grief online over how much the different pressure would change the "feel" of the ball, so that has to be part of the testing. Have one of the guys inflate a bunch of balls (some to 13 and some to 11), and the other one gets to sort the balls based on what they feel like. Anything missing? |
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Post by WhutScreenName on Jan 23, 2015 18:12:04 GMT
The reason each team provides it's own balls is to allow some customization to the QB. This is why they allow a 'range' of pressure. They are all measured carefully before game, but it's not difficult nor time consuming to let a little air out after they've been checked.
In addition to the testable aspects above, one of the things Tom Brady said in a previous interview was that he liked when the TE (Rob Gronkowski) spiked the ball in the endzone because it would deflate it some, and he liked an underinflated ball. I would like to see if a ball can lose ~2 lbs of pressure from being thrown to the ground. Seems fishy to me.
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Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 23, 2015 19:54:40 GMT
I didn't think to check this section before posting the same question here. Mods, can we get the two threads combined? Threads have been merged. The posts are arranged in time-stamp order. BR |
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Post by the light works on Jan 24, 2015 1:04:27 GMT
The reason each team provides it's own balls is to allow some customization to the QB. This is why they allow a 'range' of pressure. They are all measured carefully before game, but it's not difficult nor time consuming to let a little air out after they've been checked. In addition to the testable aspects above, one of the things Tom Brady said in a previous interview was that he liked when the TE (Rob Gronkowski) spiked the ball in the endzone because it would deflate it some, and he liked an underinflated ball. I would like to see if a ball can lose ~2 lbs of pressure from being thrown to the ground. Seems fishy to me. fishy and at least nominally testable. if they are doing a football episode, there is also the laces out bit they used in Ace Ventura Pet Detective (and is also a common opinion among kickers. and if they wanted to have some fun, they could test how hard linebackers hit. - suit up buster and have a go at him. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 24, 2015 8:37:16 GMT
English Football, the balls are inspected by the match ref, with both teams represented, it has to be a "Match ball", both teams agree, the ref agrees, (The lineys think they have a say as well, but they dont...)you kick off.
Yes there are spares, in case one is lost into the crowd, over the fence etc, to stop time-wasting whilst ball is retrieved, but, in no way would we allow each team to use their own ball.
Rugby.
Same as.
ONE ball, ONE lump of mud, .....or maybe two....
Heh heh heh...
My old school team, we were against a particularly nasty team one time, the captain was up to "Something" in the scrum, he signalled "Dummy", and handed off a muddy ball shape thing at me...
Heck I was used to him so just ran with it...
Which the other team immediately broke ranks and chased.
I had it away on my toes, carrying this "Thing".
It was a lump of muddy turf he had dug up with his heels from the rather battered pitch.... he had seen it loose under his feet and just gone with the idea....
It didnt take long for the other team to realise it wasnt near half as big as the real ball, but by then, damage done, our team had gone the other way and scored, with the real ball, that he swears he had hidden up his jumper whilst he did the switch?...
Which brings me to another myth they may want to try and see how far it goes.
Is it even possible to hide in plain sight a match ball and run a dummy that doesnt get noticed.
I know a few tricks...
Shove the ball up the back of the shirt of guy in front of you, you run one way "carrying" the dummy, he runs the other way until someone else can retrieve the ball?....
Its just as they are on the pitch, probably with professional players, why not run a few other "Myths" that can be associated with the game.
BTW, Lineys, UK term for Linesmen, much abused and half blind, these are the flag waiving numpties you see at the side of the pitch that wouldnt recognise their own Mum doing a foul unless the Ref tells them so.
Not all referee staff are that bad, but until the FA decide that they need a certain level of competence in professional football, I will keep up the insults to remind them that indeed some of the staff they hire are completely useless at their best, utterly incompetent most of the time, and at their worst, when it comes to one or two points deciding either the title run or relegation, denying a team the important points can change the whole season, they are DANGEROUS.
End of rant at UNprofessional referee staff.
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 24, 2015 10:06:32 GMT
Linesmen do not exist any more, these days they are called assistant Refrees, the change in the rules happened in 1997. They also,have slighty different powers than the old Linesmen used to have. Though people do still use the old term for them.
In Proffessional Rugby there are several balls that may be used, when you watch a match at the ground you will see say when a conversion kick is about to be taken by your Number 10, say Owen Farrell or Charlie Hodgson in my teams case, then another with be placed in the centre ready to restart the game without the need to recover the other ball. This may not come across when you watch the matches on TV so well. The teams may agree the balls to be used at the start of a match.
School sports in the UK is nowhere nearly as well funded and well supported as in the US, we would only play with one rugby ball at a time, but that was often because there were not too many spare balls around.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 25, 2015 8:26:10 GMT
Go down a few leagues to Hyde United, Stalybridge Celtic, Ashton Curzon, and the likes.
You may call a vision technician a window cleaner, but the "assistant Ref" title is just a new name for an old job?....
...You are right, its just they still call them lineys, and they still get told they should have gone to specsavers.
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 25, 2015 16:07:07 GMT
Go down a few leagues to Hyde United, Stalybridge Celtic, Ashton Curzon, and the likes. You may call a vision technician a window cleaner, but the "assistant Ref" title is just a new name for an old job?.... ...You are right, its just they still call them lineys, and they still get told they should have gone to specsavers. And that they have part time jobs as Bar Stewards..... And need to finish the game on time so they can feed the Guide Dog. Drop a few leagues Luton Town do not want to do that, they only just got back in. |
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Post by breesfan on Jan 25, 2015 20:18:46 GMT
They should get a freezer and have it at certain temperatures to see if the ball would deflate because of the conditions.
Btw, as usual, I don't think anything will happen to the Patriots or Brady. NFL will make a statement probably after the Super Bowl but you would think they'd want this issue put to bed.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 25, 2015 20:54:15 GMT
They should get a freezer and have it at certain temperatures to see if the ball would deflate because of the conditions. Btw, as usual, I don't think anything will happen to the Patriots or Brady. NFL will make a statement probably after the Super Bowl but you would think they'd want this issue put to bed. A temperature change from 70ºF when the balls were first tested, to 30ºF would result in a temperature decrease of about 1 psi if the balls were filled to 12.5 psi at 70º. So, while there is some validity to the cold ball theory, it still isn't enough to account for a 2º reduction. Personally, I don't think anything will come of it. The officials will wait until things cool down (pun intended) and then slap the Patriots with a small fine or other punishment for using improper equipment and that will be the end of it. And again, my personal opinion, but I don't think the slightly under inflated balls made any difference whatsoever in the outcome of that game. |
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Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 25, 2015 21:23:36 GMT
If it was just the temperature drop (which IIRC someone else already tested), it should have affected the Colts' balls as well.
And I'm with Greg -- if the point spread had been 6 or 7 points, that would have been different, but a final score of 45-7? The Patriots just plain outplayed the Colts.
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2015 22:27:43 GMT
If it was just the temperature drop (which IIRC someone else already tested), it should have affected the Colts' balls as well. And I'm with Greg -- if the point spread had been 6 or 7 points, that would have been different, but a final score of 45-7? The Patriots just plain outplayed the Colts. which even some colts players have said. |
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