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Post by OziRiS on Mar 22, 2015 17:28:20 GMT
I'm hoping someone here can be of help, because my car is due for inspection in the beginning of May and the electronics are just acting weird. It all started with the service interval light coming on every time I started the car. No matter how many times it was reset by my mechanic, it would light up again after a few days. Then my back window wiper stopped working and I thought it was the motor. That's been inspected by my mechanic as well and nothing was wrong with it, or any wiring leading to it. In the past month and a half, the driver's side electrical window has started acting weird. I have to press the button multiple times to get it to open and when it does, it automatically opens all the way and I have to pull up on the button to get it to where I want it. Most of the time it closes all right, but sometimes pulling up on the button will make it open all the way. The worst thing though is that the horn suddenly stopped working from one second to the next. Not that it's particularly critical to me that it works. I'm just more concerned that the circuitry that goes to the horn might be the same circuitry that goes to the airbag. In other words, I have no idea if my airbag will work if I need it. All of these faults will fail my car at inspection and I won't be able to drive it again before they're fixed. Problem is, most mechanics around here aren't very good at finding and fixing electrical faults, so the fault finding process alone will sometimes run the bill up pretty high (man hours used) before they can fix even minor problems. Seeing as some of you seem to routinely fiddle with your cars a lot more than I've ever done, I'm hoping you can help me figure out what's wrong. I have some ideas about what it could be, but I don't want to say anything yet, since I don't want to influence your thought process in a possibly wrong direction. Please keep in mind that I'm not the biggest car nerd in the world when you explain fault finding processes and so on  |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 22, 2015 18:01:52 GMT
If the check emgine/service light is on, then one or more error codes should be set. The place to start is to read the error codes and go from there. If your mechanic can reset the light, he should also be able to read the codes.
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 22, 2015 20:21:49 GMT
If the check emgine/service light is on, then one or more error codes should be set. The place to start is to read the error codes and go from there. If your mechanic can reset the light, he should also be able to read the codes. I think you're misunderstanding me, so I'll try to be clearer. It's not the "check engine" indicator that's on. It's the so-called "service interval" indicator. The only thing it's supposed to do is tell you that you've driven 15,000 km since the last time it was reset. If you're maintaining your car like the manufacturer suggests, the last time it was reset you had your oil and oil filter changed along with a lot of other stuff (IIRC there are 32 entries on the list of things that should be done during the 15,000 km service). It's not an error code. All it does is check your odometer and if you're over the 15,000 km mark since the last time it was reset (serviced), it sounds an alarm every time you start the car and light up a wrench-shaped light on your dash. I had it serviced back in November and the indicator was reset, but it went off again after two days. When it did, I called my mechanic up and he told me they'd run a diagnostic on the car and it came back fine, so he couldn't tell me why it did that. My worst fear here is that there's something wrong with the ECU... |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 22, 2015 21:01:38 GMT
Got it. I was a thinking check engine. Often when there are multiple problems that all start at the same time but otherwise appear unrelated, it's a bad ground connection somewhere. It could be a connection In one of connectors on the ECU. If you can, try reseating the connections on the ECU. If you can't reseat them, then try agressivly wiggling all the wires on my those connectors. If the problems clears up or changes, you have a bad connection somewhere.
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Post by the light works on Mar 22, 2015 21:13:42 GMT
Got it. I was a thinking check engine. Often when there are multiple problems that all start at the same time but otherwise appear unrelated, it's a bad ground connection somewhere. It could be a connection In one of connectors on the ECU. If you can, try reseating the connections on the ECU. If you can't reseat them, then try agressivly wiggling all the wires on my those connectors. If the problems clears up or changes, you have a bad connection somewhere. the department mechanic has found that tends to be the case, too: a weak ground makes all the electronics get hiccups. as for the drivers side window, I am guessing it may be that the contacts in the switch are getting dirty. if they don't make connection reliably, then you will have to fiddle with the button - and then it may only make enough connection to trip the "all the way down" subroutine. - or it could be that is also connected to a weak ground. |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 22, 2015 22:21:44 GMT
So, first thing to check is if there's proper grounding. What am I looking for and do I need to use a multimeter or something to check it? (Told you I'm not a car nerd ) |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 23, 2015 0:23:05 GMT
So, first thing to check is if there's proper grounding. What am I looking for and do I need to use a multimeter or something to check it? (Told you I'm not a car nerd ) Unless you know what you are doing, a multimeter isn't going to help you much. If it's a grounding problem, it's usually intermittent and subject to mechanical movement. Have someone operate something that isn't working, like the horn or back wiper. Then start to pull and push on any wiring bundles under the dash and hood and see if the defective item intermittently works again. If it's a lose connection, sometimes that will expose where it it. Also check all the fuses. Sometimes a blown fuse can cause strange problems. Depending on the vehicle's wiring, sometimes a blown fuse can cause power to back-feed from one circuit to another. When that happens, things can happen that you don't expect to happen. Like the service reminder turning on when it shouldn't. Other than that, I can't think of too much an inexperienced person can, or should do. An knowledgeable mechanic can use a multimeter to check for voltage drops on various circuits, but the average Joe isn't going to know how to do that. |
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Post by ironhold on Mar 23, 2015 0:33:16 GMT
I asked my dad about it (ASE-certified mechanic).
The body control module is likely having intermittent internal failure.
The dealer garage or a very reliable repair shop will have a code reader that can detect or display latent codes.
If there is not a problem with the connectors or sensors or wiring, then the body control module (which is a processor) may need to be replaced. It is one of several computers on your vehicle. As all of the computers are inter-connected, it can cause problems with other systems. Start with the "wiggle" test (in which you wiggle the connectors while rolling the window up / down or something similar) while the reader is tracking the actions of the body control module. Any codes produced may or should lead to the fault or faults.
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Post by the light works on Mar 23, 2015 1:19:17 GMT
I asked my dad about it (ASE-certified mechanic). The body control module is likely having intermittent internal failure. The dealer garage or a very reliable repair shop will have a code reader that can detect or display latent codes. If there is not a problem with the connectors or sensors or wiring, then the body control module (which is a processor) may need to be replaced. It is one of several computers on your vehicle. As all of the computers are inter-connected, it can cause problems with other systems. Start with the "wiggle" test (in which you wiggle the connectors while rolling the window up / down or something similar) while the reader is tracking the actions of the body control module. Any codes produced may or should lead to the fault or faults. ah, yes, my parents lost the body control module on their minivan. that would also account for the issues. as for the grounding, look in the most obscure places you can think of, and see if you can find a wire attached to a screw driven into thin sheet metal. carmakers typically do this instead of making a complete wired circuit. when the screw gets loos, the wire makes intermittent contact, and everything goes wonky. |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 23, 2015 7:04:44 GMT
Thanks guys. I'll start with the fuses, wiggle test of various wires and looking for disconnected/loose ground wires. That should keep me occupied for most of the day If none of that works, I'll have to look up what the Danish term for a body control module is, so I can tell a mechanic to look there. Thanks for asking your dad about it Ironhold. I really appreciate that  |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 23, 2015 7:56:43 GMT
Just out of curiosity, what is the year, make, and model of your car?
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 23, 2015 11:49:20 GMT
Just out of curiosity, what is the year, make, and model of your car? It's a 2005 Skoda Fabia Combi 1.9 TDI Like this one, except mine is a metallic greyish blue color  Update: I went through all the fuses and, as expected, nothing was wrong there. Just to make 100% sure they hadn't lost connection due to corrosion, I used my multimeter to test all of them. (At least I know how to do that ) Sadly, though expectedly, it's not going to be as easy and cheap as changing a fuse. Would have been nice... After that, I had Girlfriend sit at the wheel and test the horn (yes, the ignition was on  ) while I did the wiggle test with every set of wires I could get my hands on. Nothing. It didn't magically get the window to start acting normally either. However, I couldn't get to all the wiring, so it's not eliminated as a possibility. There are some wires here and there that are tucked in nice and tight in the engine compartment and I don't have the tools, the room or the skill to get to those without risking damage to other parts. Same goes for the ground connections. I have a Haynes manual that shows where all the ground wires are connected, but many of them are in places I can't get to. I wiggled the ones I could get to and also tested them with the multimeter and they all seemed okay. The ones I could see, but couldn't get to, I could inspect visually, but that's no kind of guarantee. All I can take away from that is that they haven't come off completely. I can't be sure they have a proper connection, and even if I could, there are still other ground wires I can't even see and don't have the guts to pull things apart to get to. After all that, I made the conclusion that maybe it was time to see a pro, so I went to a VW garage where they also specialize in Skoda. Told the guy there about the problems and he told me he'd never heard of that happening before. Gave me the whole song and dance about how my particular year of that model was "the best one made" and all that crap and told me it was probably broken wires. Not in one place, but in several. Told him I found that hard to believe and if it was true, I was sad to hear my year of that model was "the best one", since that many different wires breaking in that many different places in that short a time period in "the best one made" didn't exactly bode well for other years. I also told him about what you guys had said and about a british forum I stumbled across yesterday where they've been discussing electrical problems with this make and model since 2003 - some of those problems were very similar to mine. Oddly enough, he didn't answer that. He just told me they could fit me in some time late today or early tomorrow and that it would take between one and three hours to find the problem at an hourly rate of $120 (with tax). Not impressed, I went to the next town over where they have a Skoda dealership and garage. Told the guy there the same story, but didn't tell him about the british forum or what you guys had said. He went, "Hmm... Sounds like either a defective controller or faulty connectors somewhere. Might also have something to do with a bad ground connection, but that can't account for all of it, since some things aren't working at all, while others are working, but just not like they should." I told him what the other guy had said and he just looked at me funny and went, "And how are that many different wires in that many different places just supposed to suddenly break in that short a time frame? Just doesn't happen! No, it's definitely lumped together somewhere." That sounded a bit more promising, so I booked a time slot with one of his mechanics next monday. I also told him not to take it personally, but since his hourly rate was the same as the VW place, I'd shop around and let him know if I decided to use someone else (my usual mechanic has an hourly rate of $80). He told me he understood that, but that I should be aware that since this was a Skoda garage, he could guarantee me that they will find the problem and in all likelihood also be able to do it quicker than a non-Skoda garage, since they have all the wiring diagrams handy and can connect the car's ECU directly to the Skoda factory. While other non-brand garages might be able to do it at a lower hourly rate, they don't have access to those things and don't have expertise in this particular kind of car, so the troubleshooting process might take considerably longer and end up costing me more. He was actually willing to guarantee me that they could figure out the problem in three hours or less and was willing to put that on paper, so if it turned out they couldn't, I'd still only pay for a max of three hours. If they did it in less, I'd only have to pay for the actual time spent. The VW guy "thought" they could do it in one to three hours, but there were no guarantees and with him wanting to almost look at each and every wire seperatly and not even willing to entertain the thought of a more central problem, I wasn't about to hold my breath. I took the Skoda guy up on his offer and I now have a piece of paper with a booking for monday at 12.30 p.m., stating that the problem will have been found no later than 3.30 p.m. on the same day, or the extra hours are on the house, so at least now I know finding the problem won't cost me more than a max of $360. I'll just have to wait and see what it's going to cost to fix it... |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 23, 2015 13:13:40 GMT
That doesn't sound like too bad of a deal as long as they don't charge you $1000 for a new module.
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 23, 2015 13:22:26 GMT
That doesn't sound like too bad of a deal as long as they don't charge you $1000 for a new module. I have it on paper that they're initially only allowed to diagnose. No repairs can be made without my consent. The last time someone tried that on me, I told them they had two choises. They could either take everything out that they put in without asking me, or they could let me drive off with all of it, but I wasn't paying either way. The mechanic didn't like the idea of having to spend the time taking everything back out for no pay, so he ended up about $2,000 in the hole. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 23, 2015 13:36:07 GMT
Sounds like you have more reputable dealers then we have in the States. I think I would junk my car before I would take it to a dealer for service. I have a fairly good Independent mechanic I use for most of my car repairs. I'm also pretty good at diagnosing what's wrong. Between him and I, we can usually figure out what's going on and come to an agreement of what it's going to cost to fix it. If he says more work is needed,I know I can trust him. I used to do most of the major repairs myself, but I just don't have the time for that anymore. I'm better off doing what I know how to do and then just handing him the money to get his hands dirty.
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Post by the light works on Mar 23, 2015 14:18:30 GMT
Sounds like you have more reputable dealers then we have in the States. I think I would junk my car before I would take it to a dealer for service. I have a fairly good Independent mechanic I use for most of my car repairs. I'm also pretty good at diagnosing what's wrong. Between him and I, we can usually figure out what's going on and come to an agreement of what it's going to cost to fix it. If he says more work is needed,I know I can trust him. I used to do most of the major repairs myself, but I just don't have the time for that anymore. I'm better off doing what I know how to do and then just handing him the money to get his hands dirty. I have the same opinion of dealerships. last time I took my truck to the dealership for routine service was the 100,000 mile service - I found out later there was a service order to replace the injector pump and all the injectors under warranty, because of a known defect. they didn't bother. (put in plain terms, General Motors was paying the dealership to do about $5,000 worth of work and they didn't do it) the last time it was in at a dealership, there was a problem with the brake lights. mind you, the lights worked, because they were a multipuprose light: also did turn signals and hazard flashers with the same wire and bulb - and those worked. so I TOLD them all this and that I suspected a control module. - they spent 2 hours dissecting the wiring and lights before they ever got to the light control module - which was bad. I can't imagine how long it would have taken them to figure out a real mystery - although, granted, when the stereo was being wonky after I wrecked it, they found where the bad ground connection was hidden right away. (which was kind of a bummer, because the alternative was to install a new stereo, which would have had a working CD player) |
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 23, 2015 18:16:55 GMT
Sounds like you have more reputable dealers then we have in the States. I think I would junk my car before I would take it to a dealer for service. I have a fairly good Independent mechanic I use for most of my car repairs. I'm also pretty good at diagnosing what's wrong. Between him and I, we can usually figure out what's going on and come to an agreement of what it's going to cost to fix it. If he says more work is needed,I know I can trust him. I used to do most of the major repairs myself, but I just don't have the time for that anymore. I'm better off doing what I know how to do and then just handing him the money to get his hands dirty. Reputable dealers...? Why do you think I got it on paper? Dealership mechanics are infamous for promising more than they can keep, hiding mistakes and shotty work and doing repairs without asking first. That's why I usually go to an independant mechanic as well and that's why I wasn't all, "Oh, when you say it like that, I'll take your word for it". The only reason I'm going to a dealership mechanic this time is because my regular mechanic moved away and I haven't been able to find another one who's as good and honest as he was. And he wasn't always that good and honest. He's the guy who wound up $2,000 in the hole for doing repairs I hadn't approved. I kept coming back after that anyway. Figured that now he knew not to screw around with me, so I might as well stick with him instead of having to go through that with another mechanic next time. That, and even though he did it without my approval, the work he did was great and would still have been cheaper than most other places. If I'd had to pay for it We had an understanding after that. I'd bring in the car, he'd do an assessment and call me with an estimate. If he was given the green light to go ahead and fix what needed fixing, he'd call me again if he stumbled onto something else after taking the car apart. He never did anything without my okay again and I've never had a repair go over the estimated price. Actually, he called me a couple of times and told me he'd been able to find off-brand parts that were cheaper than the originals and if it was okay to use those instead. On one occasion I'd cleared a complete change of the transmission system. Gearbox, clutch, everything was shot. I bring in the car and three hours later he calls and tells me, "I've got good news and bad news. Which do you want first?" I tell him bad news first, so he says, "I haven't started working on your car yet and I won't until tomorrow, unless you tell me to. But before you tell me to, here's the good news. I've found a guy who restores gearboxes for a living. If you leave your car with me for two extra days, I'll take it out and send it to him and he can do it for $2,200 instead of the $4,000 it'll cost you to get a new one. The clutch and so on will still have to come in new, but that's $1,800 saved right there. What do you say?" What did I say?! I said, "Keep the car for a week if that's what it takes!" I miss that guy... |
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 24, 2015 9:12:22 GMT
kropskontrol modul
There, translated for you Oziris.
Electricians first rule, "Is it plugged in", has been dealt with above, so good luck.
However...
I know someone who had a similar type problem with his electrics, multiple faults unexplained, and suspected a earth fault somewhere.
Not knowing the exacts of the wiring, he tried "something".
It takes a self-tapping screw and some wire...
Yep, he put in his own earth.
He traced the earth part of the common wiring to the whole of the Fuse box, and put in a "Jump lead" to the main connection to the vehicle body...
All of his problems were fixed immediately.... not that he was going to end it there.
Knowing now where to start looking, he then checked his battery leads, as in search from the power source forwards.
The main lead to his battery was slightly "loose"
A little copper grease and a spanner.......
But that cant be the only problem, as it still has to get from the battery to "somewhere" for it to work?...
Eventually it turns out that the main earth return from the fuse box (and all control modules) has been placed in a rather silly route to the battery, it goes over part of the engine, and it gets warm.
The wire had started to degrade.
As copper wire gets warmer, it starts building up resistance.....
Hence the start of small intermittent flashes of "I aint working properly" faults, and just enough to combine with a slightly loose battery connection to get major faults.
Electrics can be a strange beast, they have all kind of silly reasons, and often its more than one minor fault that combines to give a lot of problems.
Check the wiring runs to and from the fuse box, if anything looks slightly dodgy, thats a good place to investigate.
In one case, I had a terminal failure where every single warning light lit up like a soddin' Christmas tree on my dashboard whilst in a 12 tonner... flashing on and off is not good, its also bloody distracting.
I stops immediately, and phone it in.
I dont risk the vehicle further, because driving with known faults is a bloody silly idea anyway, and there are legal implications if you want to go further, so I had got it somewhere safer than just at the side of a busy road.
The rescue truck turns up, and the guy says "I know this fault, its this truck", and slams the palm of his hand onto the dash.
The lights go out, "You can continue on if you want..."
Erm......
You KNEW about this fault yet you put it back in service?....
Drive it back yourself, I aint.
As in, if they know about that fault, what else are they not telling me?...
He drove it back, I drove the rescue truck. (He didnt think it worth towing?...)
I had slight complaints about refusing to drive that truck, until my "handler" from the agency stepped in and blasted them with "Non of our drivers are legal driving trucks with known faults, you are breaking the agency agreement requiring them to do so..."
As the agency had two other drivers out that day with that firm, who could be called back (On full pay) to the depot requiring a full agency test on all vehicles before they continued, someone saw sense.....
I got a replacement truck.
That had just had its Ministry testing done.
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 24, 2015 12:37:15 GMT
kropskontrol modul There, translated for you Oziris. Heh heh, good one Sorry to say it's not that easy. Stuff like this is always either referred to by it's original English name, or someone has come up with a different name that proves they have no sense of the English language whatsoever. Case in point: The hula hoop When it was introduced to Denmark, someone decided to name it a "hula hop ring". Yes, the words "hop" and "ring" mean the exact same thing in Danish as they do in English. "Ring" is just pronounced slightly differently. The company that imported the thing didn't understand that "hoop" is just a synonym for "ring". They apparently thought it had something to do with "hopping", hence "hula hop ring", which makes no sense at all, since hopping is not one of the traditional movements involved in the activity commonly known in English as "hula hooping". It can be, if you want to show off, but it wasn't originally. If you try translating "hula hop ring" from Danish to English using Google Translate, the translation comes back as "hula hoop ring", which is just plain wrong. There's no reason to add the "ring" part in English, because "hoop" and "ring" are synonyms. As for the body control module being translated into "kropskontrol modul", the word "krop" does mean "body", but we don't use the word in Danish to describe the bodies of cars, boats, planes or other inanimate objects. We only use the word "krop" to describe the bodies of living things, so "kropskontrol" has more to do with having control over your bodily functions, such as hand-eye coordination, balance, application of force through the muscles and yes, the retainment or release of waste. Google Translate is great for translating single words. I use it all the time when I'm writing here, mostly just to make sure I get the spelling right. But when it comes to whole sentences or specific technical terms, it often falls short. I still want to thank you for making the effort though |
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Post by the light works on Mar 24, 2015 14:02:09 GMT
we had an emergency call where (as it turned out) the lead for the (motor) oil pressure sensor in one of the engines came loose...
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) while I did the wiggle test with every set of wires I could get my hands on. Nothing. It didn't magically get the window to start acting normally either. However, I couldn't get to all the wiring, so it's not eliminated as a possibility. There are some wires here and there that are tucked in nice and tight in the engine compartment and I don't have the tools, the room or the skill to get to those without risking damage to other parts.