Dog Breed Intelligence

All lists of the most intelligent breeds of dog in the world I've ever seen have listed the poodle as number 1 and the border collie as number 2. There are small disputes over the rest of the top 10, but those two are always in the same spots in the lists I've seen over the years.

Intelligence is not just how trainable a dog is in terms of doing a specific job. If that was the case, beagles would be in the top 10, right alongside labradors and German shepards, since they can be trained for hunting, searching, seeing eye dogs and much more. But beagles are freakin' STUPID!!!

If the poodle and the border collie are the honor roll students of the dog world, the beagle is the weird 14-year old doing kindergarten over again for the 8th time, sitting in the back of the room gluing stuffed animals to his hands.

Sounds like a reasonable argument. With the bucket test, it could also just be that the dog is used to its owner getting angry if it knocks stuff over.

Who put the Puddle at the top of the IQ chart, and how did they measure it?...
Is it just that because no one can be bothered to check, the first person to put it thus has never had any competition.

Puddle vs TOY puddle...?...

Can I reasonably presume that along with the reduction in size between a standard puddle and a toy handbag dog, the fist thing to be reduced was iq.

The smaller not-so-bright pampered pooch is definitely not as intelligent.
And can someone tell their owners that....

I get it, its YOUR dog, you will defend it, but right about now, I have had enough of it snarling at me, now remove it before I remove it for you?...
This is public space, I have a right to be here, and I have a right to do so without your dog annoying the hell out of me.

I suppose I am biased, but this isnt anything to do with the time an Aunt visited and bought her nasty likkle toy yorkie with here who took an instant dislike to me, it spent its time in the garage, as it wouldnt behave, and snapped at my Dad as well, who was having none of that and banished it from the house.

This is because I dislike any form of "Toy" dog, they are not toys to be played with, they are animals.
I dislike the puddle as a dog because of the type of people I have met who keep them...
The usual suspect is "So much better than you" and not worried about showing that.
In their eyes, their dogs are much more important than you.
Perhaps its not the Dogs fault, its more the owners....
Probably very true.

I have seen these "charts" that rate the puddle as an intelligent dog, but, I have to question the results, because I have never yet seen a puddle use its intelligence any more than to be aware of its owners superiority complex and assume likewise, thus the dog believes it is more important than you as well as the owners.

This is, to make a point, nothing to do with its possible phrench arrogance and hereditary, I have met perfectly plausible British born dogs who never even heard of hereditary...
They are just as arrogant.

Despite their predecessors being "Working dogs", all the puddles, Standard or Toy, that I have ever met, are pampered pooch.
So show me the working dog variety that has been born to work and does it in a working dog environment with no pampering more than average working dog treats, and maybe I can change my mind...?...
I can you-tube a couple, if you can get past the tirade of "Grooming tips" that pop up when you dare mention the breed to any search engine, but I see no more than your average agility dog or well trained hunting dog of any breed.
I dont see anything that says "Super intelligent" more than any other breed?...
So where is this super intelligent evidence?...
Until then, as I have been bought up with working dogs all my life, and have witnessed first hand the ability for a Collie to think on its own, and despite the farmers request to go left, has turned right in response to a sheep trying to break away, to bring that stray sheep into line, then back to the original plan, the ability for that self same dog to have its own boundaries, despite it wanting to come say hello, wont cross that boundary until invited to do so, and have the ability to change from work to play as required, happily....
The ability for that dog to be put to work in a field, with no commands other that "bring them" and fetch a whole field of sheep back to the gate entirely on its own.

Then onto a working Blind assistance dog, who would ignore my very presence, so I thought, until the handler said he could, but I then found out that whilst he had ignored me, he had given a subtle signal to the handler that maybe there is someone there he needs to be aware of.

I suppose what I am saying is, I have seen intelligent dogs needed for many forms of work, but I have yet to see a puddle do that any better than any other, and therefore ask, if they are that good, why are they not more popular?...

Because you mentioned YouTube, SD, I did find this one:



Frankly, I was surprised.

Is it as good as a border collie at the Nationals? No, but that's not surprising. After all, herding is instinctive for collies, and they've literally been bred for it. The trainers seem happy, though.

How good are they at water retrieving? I honestly can't tell; I couldn't find a reference.

Guide dog? Police dog? Again, not sure. But the German Shepherds seem to have cornered those occupations.

Humanity has bred breeds for what we want. A border collie could never beat a greyhound in a race, no matter how smart he is. If you leave a collie alone, it'll go crazy from boredom. If you leave a bulldog alone, it might not even notice you're gone. It's what works for you.

As for toy breeds, I know they've brought happiness and companionship to lonely people, so I can't say they are useless. Both dog and person benefit, after all, even if they're not my cup of tea.

Dog intelligence usually ranks border collies at the top, although some put the Australian shepherd first, and a few the poodle. Like I said, there's controversy over methodology.

Frankly, I've had good dogs that were rocket scientists, and some that...weren't. But they were still affectionate, playful, and fun companions. And I wouldn't trade the mutts I've owned over the years for any purebred whatever--you don't trade family members (much as I'm tempted for certain human ones ).

And calling them "French" poodles does the breed a disservice. The breed originated in Germany, after all.

Which? Dog intelligence testing?

I'd say you can't. Heck, humans can't even be tested in any reliable way. We can get a good idea of intelligence level by some standard tests, but it's been argued for years that IQ tests focus mainly on mathematical and geometric intelligence and that doesn't measure social intelligence, creative intelligence and so on and I have to agree with that point.

There are plenty of examples of people in the world who can figure out and "take advantage of" any social situation, but struggle with 6+6-3, or people who can learn to play (and even master) several instruments and complex pieces of music incredibly quickly, but would be completely lost in a game of Tetris because they have very poor spacial awareness. According to standardized intelligence tests, these people would by no means have a high IQ, but it's plain for anyone to see that they can't exactly be stupid.

As I noted a couple of years ago in a discussion we all had about IQ tests (I think it was here, but it might have been on the old Disco board), I've taken several tests over the years and have posted dramatically different results. So dramatically different, in fact, that one result showed me to be in the "low normal spectrum" of IQ, while another result would have put me in the top 30% of the Mensa community. I don't remember what the numbers they came up with were, because quite frankly, I stopped caring about those results when I realized why they were so dramatically different.

The reason? Two words: Mental state

On the one where I scored in the "low normal spectrum" (IIRC, the number was between 80 and 85), I was having some problems in my life and generally had difficulty focusing on anything. I was stressed out, depressed, sleep deprived, had isolated myself socially for about a month and was even a little malnourished.

On the one where I scored highly (IIRC, it was somewhere between 150 and 160), I was on top of the world. I was getting the sleep I needed, I had just got myself a new job that I was happy with, I had recently fallen in love and was over the moon about that, I was exercising regularly and eating right.

You can't seriously tell me that my inate, basic intelligence, which is what these tests claim to measure, can jump 70-80 points in as little as a year. Something's off there!

We also shouldn't consider "lack of interest" in doing something as "lack of intelligence."
I owned an Akita. She was an extremely smart dog but in no way would do something she didn't want to do. If you tried to get her to do something she wasn't interested in doing, she would give you a look like "I don't have a clue what you are talking about." It came across like she was stupid. She was anything but.

She was also the most loyal dog I've ever owned. When I was going through Chemotherapy an number of years ago, she sensed something was wrong and wouldn't leave my side. It got a little annoying as every time I would sit down, she would come over and lay down on my feet. She would look up at me as saying, "I'm here if you need me."

I've also owned a number of Husky's. Now THERE'S stupid.

After my dad had a stroke, the family Cocker Spaniel acted just like your Akita.

Even though my dad didn't walk him, feed him, and couldn't do much more than pet him occasionally, he sat at his bedside or next to his chair almost every minute.

And yup, I don't care what any poor, ignorant cat person claims about "anthropomorphizing", that dog pretty well communicated that same "I'm here if you need me".

He was definitely smart. He was the first dog we had that had a real vocabulary. Fpr example, he recognized family members and his toys by name, and could execute requests (never commands) like "Go bring Dad your red ball".

Occasionally, we'd have home health care people visiting. After they were introduced to the dog, my mother would usually say "Charlie, take him to dad", at which point he'd climb the stairs to the landing, then look back at the visitor as if to say "Well? Are you coming?" and them proceed to lead the visitor to my father's bedroom, always making sure they stayed 3-4 feet behind him. He seemed to consider it his job.

I'm sure one size doesn't fit all, but yes, "defective" would also describe by sister's Cocker. That dog had a favorite stuffed "toy." One day, it decided that the toy had died and kept burying it in the back yard. It would then go into depression and sit on the "grave" and quite literally cry. Only to dig the toy up and do it all again. My sister spent a fortune on psychological counseling for that dog. She (my sister) also had to remove all the night lights from the house. The dog insisted on eating the bulbs.