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Post by OziRiS on Aug 24, 2015 20:16:07 GMT
I'm sure one size doesn't fit all, but yes, "defective" would also describe by sister's Cocker. That dog had a favorite stuffed "toy." One day, it decided that the toy had died and kept burying it in the back yard. It would then go into depression and sit on the "grave" and quite literally cry. Only to dig the toy up and do it all again. My sister spent a fortune on psychological counseling for that dog. She (my sister) also had to remove all the night lights from the house. The dog insisted on eating the bulbs. I'm sure there are a few that haven't been overbred, but the majority are from puppy mill ancestry that placed a premium on long floppy ears and didn't require any mental process other than how to manufacture more furry little profit makers. That same problem has existed with both german shepards and rottweilers (and to some extent, it still does), at least here in Europe. They were so popular that breeders would squeeze as many puppies out of a female as they possibly could, not really caring who the fathers were, as long as they were horny. It was so extreme at one point that today, getting a german shepard or rottweiler with a registered pedigree will easily set you back between 2,500 and 4,000 dollars around here. A similar thing happened with black labs a while back. They're not as expensive as the shepards or rottweilers, but they're up there.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 24, 2015 20:47:36 GMT
I remember talking to an AKC breeder. They said the worst thing that can happen to a breed is that it can become "popular".
"101 Dalmations" ruined the Dalmation breed, in her opinion.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 24, 2015 23:51:43 GMT
Has anyone come up with a viable way to test this?
I've been going over it in my mind several times today and every time I think I've got something, the simple application of the question, "but does this really have anything to do with intelligence?" seems to shoot my idea down and chalk any results up to either instinctual or conditioned bahavior.
The instinctual part hardly needs much explanation. Getting a dog to sit when you want it to, well... Sitting is instinctual, so it's just a matter of using your words and body language to make the dog understand that you want it to use that particular instinct right now and hey presto, you've "taught the dog a trick". Or not...
I've been contemplating the idea of testing how easy a dog is to train as a measure of intelligence, but what I've realized is that, while it can certainly show a dog's ability to comprehend what's going on around it and read the verbal and physical cues of the trainer, there's a huge risk of labeling dogs that simply don't have the desire to please a trainer as unintelligent when they're really not. There's a huge difference between not wanting to do something and not being able to do something.
If training fails, there's also always the option that the dog isn't the problem. If the trainer is even mildly inconsistent in his/her methodology, the dog can get confused about what the trainer wants it to do. This can seem like the dog is stupid, when it's really just trying to figure out what the heck is going on.
The idea of leaving the dog alone to solve some sort of task has also crossed my mind, but as mentioned ealier, the test design could put the dog at a disadvantage if it's already been conditioned to know there are certain things it's not supposed to do.
For example, when we leave our house, we close off the living room by putting a large board in front of the doorway (our house is poorly designed - the door has been removed to allow us to utilize the huge corner of the living room that would otherwise be hidden behind it). Now, our dog Bobby could easily put a paw on that board and tip it over, granting him access to the living room. A visiting dog even showed him how to do it once. But he understands that board is put there because he's not allowed in the living room when we're not home and that we won't be impressed to find him there when we get back, which means he'll get in trouble if he goes in there and he doesn't want that.
I know what you're thinking. "How do you know what he knows? How do you know he's not just too stupid to figure it out, even if another dog has shown him how to do it?"
I know because he's done it once. Girlfriend had just closed off the living room to go out and realized she'd forgotten her keys on the coffee table. Instead of removing the board, she just straddled over it (it's about 2 feet tall) and went for the coffee table. Once on the other side, she stumbled, twisted her ankle, fell and hit her head on the dining table, knocking her out cold. When she came to, the board had been knocked over and Bobby was standing over her, switching between licking her face to wake her up and howling for help.
He clearly has some sort of understanding of when it's appropriate to think, "I won't do it, because I'll get in trouble," and, "Screw trouble! This is more important!" and act accordingly to both scenarios.
In other words: Pre-conditioning is a huge factor in this that we can't ignore
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2015 0:07:31 GMT
The poodle I inherited from my grandmother is a little doggy doofus, but then again he's been through quite a bit and so may simply be rather addled. canine senility is a thing.
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2015 0:22:42 GMT
Has anyone come up with a viable way to test this? I've been going over it in my mind several times today and every time I think I've got something, the simple application of the question, "but does this really have anything to do with intelligence?" seems to shoot my idea down and chalk any results up to either instinctual or conditioned bahavior. The instinctual part hardly needs much explanation. Getting a dog to sit when you want it to, well... Sitting is instinctual, so it's just a matter of using your words and body language to make the dog understand that you want it to use that particular instinct right now and hey presto, you've "taught the dog a trick". Or not... I've been contemplating the idea of testing how easy a dog is to train as a measure of intelligence, but what I've realized is that, while it can certainly show a dog's ability to comprehend what's going on around it and read the verbal and physical cues of the trainer, there's a huge risk of labeling dogs that simply don't have the desire to please a trainer as unintelligent when they're really not. There's a huge difference between not wanting to do something and not being able to do something. If training fails, there's also always the option that the dog isn't the problem. If the trainer is even mildly inconsistent in his/her methodology, the dog can get confused about what the trainer wants it to do. This can seem like the dog is stupid, when it's really just trying to figure out what the heck is going on. The idea of leaving the dog alone to solve some sort of task has also crossed my mind, but as mentioned ealier, the test design could put the dog at a disadvantage if it's already been conditioned to know there are certain things it's not supposed to do. For example, when we leave our house, we close off the living room by putting a large board in front of the doorway (our house is poorly designed - the door has been removed to allow us to utilize the huge corner of the living room that would otherwise be hidden behind it). Now, our dog Bobby could easily put a paw on that board and tip it over, granting him access to the living room. A visiting dog even showed him how to do it once. But he understands that board is put there because he's not allowed in the living room when we're not home and that we won't be impressed to find him there when we get back, which means he'll get in trouble if he goes in there and he doesn't want that. I know what you're thinking. "How do you know what he knows? How do you know he's not just too stupid to figure it out, even if another dog has shown him how to do it?" I know because he's done it once. Girlfriend had just closed off the living room to go out and realized she'd forgotten her keys on the coffee table. Instead of removing the board, she just straddled over it (it's about 2 feet tall) and went for the coffee table. Once on the other side, she stumbled, twisted her ankle, fell and hit her head on the dining table, knocking her out cold. When she came to, the board had been knocked over and Bobby was standing over her, switching between licking her face to wake her up and howling for help. He clearly has some sort of understanding of when it's appropriate to think, "I won't do it, because I'll get in trouble," and, "Screw trouble! This is more important!" and act accordingly to both scenarios. In other words: Pre-conditioning is a huge factor in this that we can't ignore I agree, and to add to the difficulty, different breeds have different temperaments, so a trainer who trains one breed well, may not be able to effectively train a different breed beyond basic rules of behavior. I've worked with a shepherd breed who was smart enough to know hierarchy of command. I.E. if her owner told her to do something and I told her to do something different she would ignore me. however, if her owner did not have her doing something, then she would obey me. Lion, in general knows the difference between my plate and "mom's" plate - because she is not allowed to eat off my plate, but mom sets the plate down for her to lick when she is done. of course, she's a little vague on when mom is setting the plate down for herself and when she is setting it down for Lion. she also does pretty well on knowing she is not allowed to lick me, but is allowed to lick mom. - although she tries to sneak one in on me once in a while.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 25, 2015 2:22:02 GMT
I agree, and to add to the difficulty, different breeds have different temperaments, so a trainer who trains one breed well, may not be able to effectively train a different breed beyond basic rules of behavior. Lion, in general knows the difference between my plate and "mom's" plate - because she is not allowed to eat off my plate, but mom sets the plate down for her to lick when she is done. Allowing the dog to pre-wash the dishes got me banned from doing the dishes. For life. I'm no dummy.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 25, 2015 4:56:46 GMT
<snip> The idea of leaving the dog alone to solve some sort of task has also crossed my mind, but as mentioned ealier, the test design could put the dog at a disadvantage if it's already been conditioned to know there are certain things it's not supposed to do. For example, when we leave our house, we close off the living room by putting a large board in front of the doorway (our house is poorly designed - the door has been removed to allow us to utilize the huge corner of the living room that would otherwise be hidden behind it). Now, our dog Bobby could easily put a paw on that board and tip it over, granting him access to the living room. A visiting dog even showed him how to do it once. But he understands that board is put there because he's not allowed in the living room when we're not home and that we won't be impressed to find him there when we get back, which means he'll get in trouble if he goes in there and he doesn't want that. I know what you're thinking. "How do you know what he knows? How do you know he's not just too stupid to figure it out, even if another dog has shown him how to do it?" I know because he's done it once. Girlfriend had just closed off the living room to go out and realized she'd forgotten her keys on the coffee table. Instead of removing the board, she just straddled over it (it's about 2 feet tall) and went for the coffee table. Once on the other side, she stumbled, twisted her ankle, fell and hit her head on the dining table, knocking her out cold. When she came to, the board had been knocked over and Bobby was standing over her, switching between licking her face to wake her up and howling for help. He clearly has some sort of understanding of when it's appropriate to think, "I won't do it, because I'll get in trouble," and, "Screw trouble! This is more important!" and act accordingly to both scenarios. In other words: Pre-conditioning is a huge factor in this that we can't ignore Yup. When training guide dogs for the blind, one of the things they have to do is teach "intelligent disobedience". The dog will stop their owner from walking under things that are too low for them, like low hanging tree branches, or into dangerous situations (like open elevator shafts or traffic). Of course, I remember one news story of a guide dog that managed to kill two of its humans by not quite getting the concept. Oops. I've seen an example myself. My family once went out all day without the dog, and only realized after 8 or more hours that we'd left her locked in the house with no way to relieve herself. When we got home, we found she had relieved herself on a piece of plastic artificial grass that was tucked away under some stairs. Not only did she not get in trouble (it was our fault, after all) but we applauded her choice--she obviously made the connection between artificial and real grass. Plus, it was very easy to clean it up.
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2015 5:17:36 GMT
I agree, and to add to the difficulty, different breeds have different temperaments, so a trainer who trains one breed well, may not be able to effectively train a different breed beyond basic rules of behavior. Lion, in general knows the difference between my plate and "mom's" plate - because she is not allowed to eat off my plate, but mom sets the plate down for her to lick when she is done. Allowing the dog to pre-wash the dishes got me banned from doing the dishes. For life. I'm no dummy. I have been tempted to just put the dog-washed dishes in the cupboard.
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2015 5:19:43 GMT
<snip> The idea of leaving the dog alone to solve some sort of task has also crossed my mind, but as mentioned ealier, the test design could put the dog at a disadvantage if it's already been conditioned to know there are certain things it's not supposed to do. For example, when we leave our house, we close off the living room by putting a large board in front of the doorway (our house is poorly designed - the door has been removed to allow us to utilize the huge corner of the living room that would otherwise be hidden behind it). Now, our dog Bobby could easily put a paw on that board and tip it over, granting him access to the living room. A visiting dog even showed him how to do it once. But he understands that board is put there because he's not allowed in the living room when we're not home and that we won't be impressed to find him there when we get back, which means he'll get in trouble if he goes in there and he doesn't want that. I know what you're thinking. "How do you know what he knows? How do you know he's not just too stupid to figure it out, even if another dog has shown him how to do it?" I know because he's done it once. Girlfriend had just closed off the living room to go out and realized she'd forgotten her keys on the coffee table. Instead of removing the board, she just straddled over it (it's about 2 feet tall) and went for the coffee table. Once on the other side, she stumbled, twisted her ankle, fell and hit her head on the dining table, knocking her out cold. When she came to, the board had been knocked over and Bobby was standing over her, switching between licking her face to wake her up and howling for help. He clearly has some sort of understanding of when it's appropriate to think, "I won't do it, because I'll get in trouble," and, "Screw trouble! This is more important!" and act accordingly to both scenarios. In other words: Pre-conditioning is a huge factor in this that we can't ignore Yup. When training guide dogs for the blind, one of the things they have to do is teach "intelligent disobedience". The dog will stop their owner from walking under things that are too low for them, like low hanging tree branches, or into dangerous situations (like open elevator shafts or traffic). Of course, I remember one news story of a guide dog that managed to kill two of its humans by not quite getting the concept. Oops. I've seen an example myself. My family once went out all day without the dog, and only realized after 8 or more hours that we'd left her locked in the house with no way to relieve herself. When we got home, we found she had relieved herself on a piece of plastic artificial grass that was tucked away under some stairs. Not only did she not get in trouble (it was our fault, after all) but we applauded her choice--she obviously made the connection between artificial and real grass. Plus, it was very easy to clean it up. that was one thing Bear DID get the concept of when he was younger. if he had to pee and nobody was there to let him out, he would jump into the bathtub to pee.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 25, 2015 6:15:00 GMT
Our front gate is the boundary to out property... I watched our dog on the day the gate was left open. He goes out that way when he gets walked, twice a day, yet, he went, sniffed, and watched, then looked back at us?... [Had?] He clearly got the idea that this is the boundary of "Home den" and unless someone is with him, he shouldnt go further?.... He probably knows he can squeeze through or knock over the fences around the front of our property, but he doesnt. There are some fences at the back to stop him climbing over flower beds... they are just low plastic mesh, he wont climb over them. I get the idea that "stupid" as he sometimes is, he understands "Rules"?.....
We have a dish washer, if anything dog related is left on the dish, I would complain to the makers?... However, I have the rule, no feeding from the plate. Its a rule I keep because we had younger kids when he was first here, and I set that rule, as I saw them feeding him their food?... He has a dish, scrape anything leftover into his dish, and thats fair. He will watch us eat, if he gets the idea there may be leftovers, he goes and stands guard over his dish as soon as we stand up?.. again, he knows the rules.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 25, 2015 6:31:17 GMT
I have a few. First barrier, dog obedience school. Any fails are out...... And get that done by a reputable handler. This must be a sizeable test to include half a dozen dogs from each bread to be tested to get some idea of a good result... Some individual dogs may show greater understanding than the breed as a whole?.. Sone nay just be thick. Think of a cross section of humans... with enough participants, you will always get one or two window licking stupid ones.
Then set some tasks for dog learning new tricks. It already busted that Old dogs cant lean new tricks... Ours is almost 10 now, recently, one of the kids taught him "High-Five", as in one foot on your chest whilst you are stood up and the other one to tap your hand.... My kids are almost 6ft tall, so that may indicate how tall our Bob is when on hind legs... not that he is allowed to, but he could lick my chin if he wanted?... I am 6ft2.
Then set some simple puzzles. The idea of knocking over a bucket to get a treat, show the dog the trick, then let them do it... That has been floated on this thread, can it work?.
I also suggest you go ask a prof. dog handler for some tips, as surely they should know best?... Do we have a dog trainer amongst us who has the necessary experience of this?.. even amateur home experience of multiple breeds should give us a better idea.
For me, the idea of conditioned or instinctual is not an issue. If the dog gets the trick first time, then thats an indication of higher intelligence than one who has to be shown three or four times. If it takes three or four, its higher than a flat out not got a clue.
If you get a flat out refusal, but then goes and steals the bag of treats from the cupboard as soon as you leave the room, what you have there is a Cat.
Intelligence has to be more than instinctual. But instinct that has been leaned from being a puppy, is that instinct or conditioning?... How the heck does a sheep dog that has never ever been a sheep dog, KNOW to heard sheep?... (Is that even possible?)
Can dogs learn from each other?... I already know the answer to this, so a quick example would be... Teaching ours to fetch, we spent ages getting him to return to our feet. We borrowed my friends, who not only returns to your feet, he returns to your hand, or, "throws" it in your lap. (He is a collie, so uber-obedient, and very smart.) A weekend together, and our dog starts copying the other one.... So yes, they do learn from each other.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 25, 2015 7:59:06 GMT
I've seen footage of border collies that have never been near sheep in their lives try to "herd" children in playgrounds and on large lawns, even though no one had trained the dogs to do that, so yes, instincts can be pretty strong.
And I still think the whole "teaching them tricks" deal opens up to misconceptions about intelligence. As I said earlier, some dogs are temperamental (or just mental) and have absolutely no internal drive to please a trainer. Does that make them stupid? Not necessarily.
My brother-from-another-mother's parents once had a dog, Triggo, who was a cross between an Akira and the largest of the chihuahua breeds (I know, weird mix!), none of which are known for being particularly smart. Triggo was the dog that showed Bobby how to tip over the board blocking the living room door. He was also the dog that figured out the kitchen chairs weren't particularly heavy and could be moved, so he could get to the jar of treats on the counter.
One time, my bro's stepdad (refered to as "Daddy" from here on out for brevity) was standing at their 5 foot fence, talking to their negihbor who was on the other side. Triggo really liked that neighbor, but being a little less than a foot tall himself, he couldn't get the neighbor's attention when he was on the ground. As he was standing there, between Daddy and the fence, he put his front paws on the fence in a feeble attempt to get up. Then he realized Daddy was standing very close to the fence, so Triggo propped his back against Daddy, preventing him from falling backwards and then he used the fence as a ladder. 3 seconds later, before his Daddy had even figured out what was going on, Triggo was resting his front legs on top of the fence, looking at the neighbor like, "Dude! Right here! I'm much more interesting to talk to than my Daddy!"
Triggo was unteachable when it came to tricks. He was okay with obedience, at least as long as there was something in it for him, but tricks? Forget it! Not that he was a bad dog. By no means! He was an incredibly sweet and loving little guy and he had none of those territorial tendencies that you often hear about with chihuahuas. He just couldn't be bothered with the sitting and laying and rolling over on the whims and commands of humans. But he was incredibly intelligent! We were dumbfounded again and again by his enginuity.
So, no. Trainability can't be used as a metric for intelligence. Some dogs refuse to be trained. It's not that they couldn't if they wanted to. They just really don't want to.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 25, 2015 8:11:04 GMT
Trained to do tricks?... no, we dont need clowns. Trained to do useful tasks?... I know of an assistance dog who can fetch the phone, open doors, open and empty a washing machine to his owners lap and do a lot of things to help that wheelchair bound owner.
The more intelligent dog will know if they are helping?... Maybe. Rolling about on his back playing "dead" is play?... getting the post from the door, or even a post box, is helping.
The herding thing is a stalking task back from primordial origins of hunting dog packs..."Wolf" DNA leftovers?... The pack would work together to heard the animals to a suitable place to pick out "dinner" Wolf packs still use this technique.
The dogs we use now as sheep dogs have had the placid nature encouraged, and the heading nature put as important when breeding. Obedience is all part of them fitting in with the pack. You as owner are head of the pack....
Most successful sheep dogs live as part of a pack of other dogs, they tend to get bored silly if left alone too long. They like company, they like to belong to a pack. They aint that much removed from Wolf origins?...
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 25, 2015 8:25:29 GMT
Okay, so "tricks" was a poor choise of word. Let me put it another way:
You couldn't teach Triggo to do anything, just because YOU wanted him to do it. He wasn't all that interested in pleasing you, unless it somehow pleased him to do so. He would do the usual sweet things, like keeping close by when you were sick and all that and he did understand the whole "leader of the pack" thing and that he wasn't it, so if he wanted to keep his priveleges, there was stuff he couldn't do and stuff he kind of had to do.
We could probably have taught him to get the newspaper from the mail slot, but only if HE found it amusing. He wouldn't have done it just to please us and the efficacy of treats was limited. He was a very small dog, remember? He got full quickly and wasn't one of those dogs that will eat until it throws up and then eat some more, like many labs I've known.
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2015 14:28:33 GMT
Our front gate is the boundary to out property... I watched our dog on the day the gate was left open. He goes out that way when he gets walked, twice a day, yet, he went, sniffed, and watched, then looked back at us?... [Had?] He clearly got the idea that this is the boundary of "Home den" and unless someone is with him, he shouldnt go further?.... He probably knows he can squeeze through or knock over the fences around the front of our property, but he doesnt. There are some fences at the back to stop him climbing over flower beds... they are just low plastic mesh, he wont climb over them. I get the idea that "stupid" as he sometimes is, he understands "Rules"?..... We have a dish washer, if anything dog related is left on the dish, I would complain to the makers?... However, I have the rule, no feeding from the plate. Its a rule I keep because we had younger kids when he was first here, and I set that rule, as I saw them feeding him their food?... He has a dish, scrape anything leftover into his dish, and thats fair. He will watch us eat, if he gets the idea there may be leftovers, he goes and stands guard over his dish as soon as we stand up?.. again, he knows the rules. This is why I have gone through the challenge to teach Lion that it is only okay to eat from Mom's plate, but not Dad's.
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Post by WhutScreenName on Sept 16, 2016 16:47:31 GMT
Seemed the most logical place to post this.
When it comes to lending a hand to a furry friend in need, there are no lengths that a true animal lover won’t go to. We’ve seen people step in to rescue pigs trapped in the bottom of wells, rescue kittens stuck in the vents, and a whole bunch of other impressive displays.
But what we might not recognize on a daily basis is the fact that this is showing of compassion is hardly isolated to people. Just take a look at the dog and cat in this video! The kitty appears to have been struggling in the water but in no time at all, the pup swoops in and tows the feline all the way to shore!
This is certainly an admirable act from this brave pupper and we certainly hope that the cat said a huge thank you for the kindness. We could all stand to learn a little something from these two! Remember, compassion is contagious, pass it along!
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Post by the light works on Sept 16, 2016 19:00:54 GMT
Seemed the most logical place to post this. When it comes to lending a hand to a furry friend in need, there are no lengths that a true animal lover won’t go to. We’ve seen people step in to rescue pigs trapped in the bottom of wells, rescue kittens stuck in the vents, and a whole bunch of other impressive displays. But what we might not recognize on a daily basis is the fact that this is showing of compassion is hardly isolated to people. Just take a look at the dog and cat in this video! The kitty appears to have been struggling in the water but in no time at all, the pup swoops in and tows the feline all the way to shore! This is certainly an admirable act from this brave pupper and we certainly hope that the cat said a huge thank you for the kindness. We could all stand to learn a little something from these two! Remember, compassion is contagious, pass it along! to be fair, it could have been retrieval instinct, as well. he might not have been aware it was a cat he was rescuing.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 18, 2016 7:48:55 GMT
We have a "part time cat", a semi-feral friendly thing that only comes in when the weather is bad. The other night, the dog ups and scratches at the door. Its HAMMERING it down outside, one of the worst rainstorms and thunderstorms we have had in ages. So thinking he wanted out (he aint scared of thunder, especially if he needs to "go"....) one of us opened the door. The dog returns to his bed... closely followed by the Cat. Only logical conclusion, the Dog had heard Car over the outside noise and just wanted to let us know it wanted in.
The Dog and Cat initially had problems, dog wants t play, cat is too used to being chased by other dogs, and distrusts him. The cat soon learnt that this dog is a warm fluffy ball of WARMTH on a cold night.
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Post by the light works on Sept 18, 2016 14:05:21 GMT
We have a "part time cat", a semi-feral friendly thing that only comes in when the weather is bad. The other night, the dog ups and scratches at the door. Its HAMMERING it down outside, one of the worst rainstorms and thunderstorms we have had in ages. So thinking he wanted out (he aint scared of thunder, especially if he needs to "go"....) one of us opened the door. The dog returns to his bed... closely followed by the Cat. Only logical conclusion, the Dog had heard Car over the outside noise and just wanted to let us know it wanted in. The Dog and Cat initially had problems, dog wants t play, cat is too used to being chased by other dogs, and distrusts him. The cat soon learnt that this dog is a warm fluffy ball of WARMTH on a cold night. our dogs and cats buddy up, too.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 20, 2016 10:50:23 GMT
Been talking to Mrs Dragon, as she has had Dogs for most of her life, and has more experience than I do on the subject.... She has also had Cats, at the same time, and disagrees with those who say "They will just fight"... They play. There is a basic "pecking order" in all "Families" that every animal has to find out where it fits in the scale... Any new animal will have to find its place, so some minor strutting, some dabbing, some correction by the "boss", and as soon as everyone knows their place, it mostly stays that way, as they all adhere to that "Order", so on any disagreement, the hight up always "wins", it saves fights later on. You may get one or two who just "Dont want to play" .. and will just NOT get along with everyone else. Otherwise, she has noted, cats and dogs are almost identical in habits of playing, and will quite happily chase each other about for a "mad half hour" a day... Sometimes when the weather is bad, its the only exercise they want to get, so why not?.
I have seen a cat sat on a chair just extend a paw and "dab" at an unsuspecting dog as it walks past... Not a hard hit, just a "poke" that sort of says "hello", or a sudden dart thats more of a "Gotcha"... Dogs have their "puppy bow", where paws extended and head down, they invite you to play. Cats are always 100% in play mode when they are awake, and will just start something "Just for the hell of it", no invite needed, you wag that tail, I am going to chase it, I am a cat, its what I do....
So what has this to do with intelligence?. I say that the more they play, the higher the IQ. They get bored. We all get "Cabin fever" if the weather is bad and we cant get outside for a bit of a stretch now and again... Cats and Dogs can only sleep soooo much of the day, then they need to "do something". If we 'Umans aint up for it, they will go find something, anything, someone else, to play with. Think of it this way, if you were confined to a bedroom 24 hrs a day, how long before you wanted out?.
The more a dog wants to play is the more intelligence it has. Ours is now over 10 yrs old... and he plays every day still, like a big daft puppy, "come chase me", and if you dont, he will throw a ball at you until you do something. He knows I dont get about very quickly, so we have a quick play-fight over his ball, and then it gets thrown a couple of times, before he goes find a kid to pester, because they do run about with him still... And they walk him.
The part-time cat will play... but not for very long... its gets out in all weathers and goes hides under a shed or somewhere dry.. But it will take a dab at the dog and then run off and hide. I believe its doing that on purpose, "Come chase me" play.
But throwing the ball for the dog?.. I used to bounce it off the shed. It now slows down, works out how the ball will bounce, and is ready to catch it after the bounce?.. he shows he understands basic bounce physics. He will even stop and wait if its heading for a wall, because he knows that ball will come back to him.
I have seen that in other dogs as well. You try telling me that it isnt a sign of intelligence, understanding, and being able to plan out a bouncing ball to be able to predict where it will be to catch it?..
Maybe that could be a part of the IQ test, to see how easily a dog can catch a bouncing ball, is it just chasing everything, or is it panning the predicted path after the bounce.
That cat?. Not sure. It chased a ball over our hardwood floor inside, forgot about the lack of traction, and slid head first into the door.... After we finished laughing at that, it was still in the mood to play-fight with my hand, but not serious enough to use its sharpest claws to grip. It then went flying past the dog, bounced off him, and flew under the table, where it teased the dog for a few mins.
I think its part nuts, which is good, it fits in nice with the rest of us...
Mrs Dragon reminds me that in all he previous dogs, there has always been the ability to "amuse" themselves, sometimes at our expense, but both the dogs and the cats can play without Humans needed. And at the end of it, there is usually a ball of fur "Some assembly required" of dog and cat in the dog bed on a cold day keeping warm.
Intelligence shows in them, that they have reasoned, "This aint such a bad place" They get food warmth and companionship from each other and us. Once they have worked out who is boss, they willingly settle in to "Family". That should show that there is something inside them that WANTS a family environment, a pack, a collective... and its not just being around Humans?..
There are exceptions to the rule, my first cat was very much a loner 23 hrs a day, he would appear, eat, play, sit on your lap for company, but after an hour, he would go find somewhere quiet.
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