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Post by silverdragon on Aug 22, 2015 7:57:18 GMT
Are you sure?... define worlds most intelligent when there are so many other breeds of dog that can be put to that test?...
No, no it isnt, its juts not, and I can prove it. [Maybe this is worth opening elsewhere as a "miff"...?....]
Bring me a Border or Shetland collie "Sheep dog", UK style, then bring me a sheep dog of any kind ever used anywhere around the world, then bring me a Labrador, of any type, Hunting dog, Gun dog, or Blind persons assistance Dog. Heck bring me and ambassador of every single working dog the whole world over... Just not our Bob.... He is intelligent but much to keen to play. And that may include his sense of humour in teasing us humans...
I know the puddle is used now as SAR, and especially by the south france peoples as that role (Search and rescue) but that seams about it now as far as actual work goes.
So why do they use other dogs as working dogs, and not puddles?...
Is it just because they are considered phrench and we aint alone in this country disliking them?. [Edit, due to information later in the thread, this is inaccurate, they are originally German Water dogs, but the phrench "Standardised" them, hence the name "Standard" for the full size breed... the Germans got it right, the phrench stuck their noses in...?...] Or is it that the other breeds of dog in the world are just local and you used what you had.... But puddles can be shipped all over the world, so why in the heck dont we do just that if they are so intelligent?...
Also, Grab me a Husky, then go grab me a Wolf. There will be fun trying to test a Wolf for IQ......
The ESM's own wolf pack that patrols our forest for security purposes (and not for as suggested to prevent the n00bs from escaping) have been slightly artificially elevated in the IQ status, just enough to realise that as we still feed them, its better to stay around these parts.
That was the other not-husky part of Bob you saw... he has herded the puddles into some dark corner to play with you, you now go play hide and sneak, ... ....sneak?..whilst you search, he will move the puddles to places you have already looked in?...
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 22, 2015 15:53:20 GMT
All lists of the most intelligent breeds of dog in the world I've ever seen have listed the poodle as number 1 and the border collie as number 2. There are small disputes over the rest of the top 10, but those two are always in the same spots in the lists I've seen over the years.
Intelligence is not just how trainable a dog is in terms of doing a specific job. If that was the case, beagles would be in the top 10, right alongside labradors and German shepards, since they can be trained for hunting, searching, seeing eye dogs and much more. But beagles are freakin' STUPID!!!
If the poodle and the border collie are the honor roll students of the dog world, the beagle is the weird 14-year old doing kindergarten over again for the 8th time, sitting in the back of the room gluing stuffed animals to his hands.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 22, 2015 16:12:49 GMT
Poodles were hunting dogs long before they became pampered pets. Even their funny hairdos are designed to keep their joints warm in cold water. Humans, of course, carried the trims to the extreme. Dog intelligence levels have recently fallen into some controversy. The typical testing methods fail with breeds that are extremely aware of how humans think. In short, it's proposed that some dogs think we're their helpful friends, and don't understand why the testing people wouldn't help them in a test situation. For example, one simple test is to put a prize (food or a toy) underneath a bucket. If the dog tips over the bucket to get the prize, they're obviously smarter than the dog that doesn't, right? Well, some dog owning testers pointed out that dogs weren't always food- or toy- oriented, but more likely to seek approval. It's like the old trick of balancing a biscuit on the end of a dog's nose and only letting them eat it on command. They want to please you more than they want the biscuit. It's not that they are too stupid to get the food, they just expect you to only permit them to have it when you want them to, so they won't question your decision to hide the prize. Sorry, I read a book on the subject, and found it fascinating.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 22, 2015 17:55:05 GMT
Poodles were hunting dogs long before they became pampered pets. Even their funny hairdos are designed to keep their joints warm in cold water. Humans, of course, carried the trims to the extreme. Dog intelligence levels have recently fallen into some controversy. The typical testing methods fail with breeds that are extremely aware of how humans think. In short, it's proposed that some dogs think we're their helpful friends, and don't understand why the testing people wouldn't help them in a test situation. For example, one simple test is to put a prize (food or a toy) underneath a bucket. If the dog tips over the bucket to get the prize, they're obviously smarter than the dog that doesn't, right? Well, some dog owning testers pointed out that dogs weren't always food- or toy- oriented, but more likely to seek approval. It's like the old trick of balancing a biscuit on the end of a dog's nose and only letting them eat it on command. They want to please you more than they want the biscuit. It's not that they are too stupid to get the food, they just expect you to only permit them to have it when you want them to, so they won't question your decision to hide the prize. Sorry, I read a book on the subject, and found it fascinating. Sounds like a reasonable argument. With the bucket test, it could also just be that the dog is used to its owner getting angry if it knocks stuff over.
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 22, 2015 18:10:10 GMT
Sounds like a reasonable argument. With the bucket test, it could also just be that the dog is used to its owner getting angry if it knocks stuff over. Yup. Kind of like what my wife does to me... Of course, today I am a hero! I am the Lizard King! I woke up to a rather distressed call of "LIZARD! LIZARD! LIZARD IN THE HOUSE!" followed by "...and put on some pants!" We live next to a small creek (now dry, like everything) and sometimes we see lizards in the yard. Today, one decided to come into the front door as my wife was opening it. Said lizard invited himself in and ran to hide behind a shredder I keep by the front door (nice way to get rid of unsolicited credit card applications) next to some bookshelves. Half asleep, after moving the furniture, I managed to shoo our reptilian house guest out the front door again, so no lizards were hurt in the making of this post. My wife was somewhat puzzled by her own reaction. She spent some time on Guam as a child, and often reminisced about the lizards she played with as a girl. For some reason, this little 3 inch reptile freaked her out today. Even she didn't understand why. So I'm the hero until at least after breakfast. Then, I'm sure I'll be back to being a dog. Fame is so fleeting!
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 23, 2015 7:09:36 GMT
Who put the Puddle at the top of the IQ chart, and how did they measure it?... Is it just that because no one can be bothered to check, the first person to put it thus has never had any competition.
Puddle vs TOY puddle...?...
Can I reasonably presume that along with the reduction in size between a standard puddle and a toy handbag dog, the fist thing to be reduced was iq.
The smaller not-so-bright pampered pooch is definitely not as intelligent. And can someone tell their owners that....
I get it, its YOUR dog, you will defend it, but right about now, I have had enough of it snarling at me, now remove it before I remove it for you?... This is public space, I have a right to be here, and I have a right to do so without your dog annoying the hell out of me.
I suppose I am biased, but this isnt anything to do with the time an Aunt visited and bought her nasty likkle toy yorkie with here who took an instant dislike to me, it spent its time in the garage, as it wouldnt behave, and snapped at my Dad as well, who was having none of that and banished it from the house.
This is because I dislike any form of "Toy" dog, they are not toys to be played with, they are animals. I dislike the puddle as a dog because of the type of people I have met who keep them... The usual suspect is "So much better than you" and not worried about showing that. In their eyes, their dogs are much more important than you. Perhaps its not the Dogs fault, its more the owners.... Probably very true.
I have seen these "charts" that rate the puddle as an intelligent dog, but, I have to question the results, because I have never yet seen a puddle use its intelligence any more than to be aware of its owners superiority complex and assume likewise, thus the dog believes it is more important than you as well as the owners.
This is, to make a point, nothing to do with its possible phrench arrogance and hereditary, I have met perfectly plausible British born dogs who never even heard of hereditary... They are just as arrogant.
Despite their predecessors being "Working dogs", all the puddles, Standard or Toy, that I have ever met, are pampered pooch. So show me the working dog variety that has been born to work and does it in a working dog environment with no pampering more than average working dog treats, and maybe I can change my mind...?... I can you-tube a couple, if you can get past the tirade of "Grooming tips" that pop up when you dare mention the breed to any search engine, but I see no more than your average agility dog or well trained hunting dog of any breed. I dont see anything that says "Super intelligent" more than any other breed?... So where is this super intelligent evidence?... Until then, as I have been bought up with working dogs all my life, and have witnessed first hand the ability for a Collie to think on its own, and despite the farmers request to go left, has turned right in response to a sheep trying to break away, to bring that stray sheep into line, then back to the original plan, the ability for that self same dog to have its own boundaries, despite it wanting to come say hello, wont cross that boundary until invited to do so, and have the ability to change from work to play as required, happily.... The ability for that dog to be put to work in a field, with no commands other that "bring them" and fetch a whole field of sheep back to the gate entirely on its own.
Then onto a working Blind assistance dog, who would ignore my very presence, so I thought, until the handler said he could, but I then found out that whilst he had ignored me, he had given a subtle signal to the handler that maybe there is someone there he needs to be aware of.
I suppose what I am saying is, I have seen intelligent dogs needed for many forms of work, but I have yet to see a puddle do that any better than any other, and therefore ask, if they are that good, why are they not more popular?...
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 23, 2015 10:11:34 GMT
I suppose what I am saying is, I have seen intelligent dogs needed for many forms of work, but I have yet to see a puddle do that any better than any other, and therefore ask, if they are that good, why are they not more popular?... You answered that question yourself earlier in your post. They've become pampered status symbols for arrogant humans. Most of us don't like arrogant humans, so most of us don't like the dog breeds arrogant humans tend to keep. Like the "purse dogs" or "toy dogs" that you mentioned, for example. The poodle has gotten a bad reputation, not for how IT acts, but for how its OWNERS tend to act. They're even seen as a "girly" breed these days, but you know what animal is also seen as "girly" in many countries these days? The horse. Are you going to tell me horses aren't good work animals, just because a bunch of rich chicks over the past 6 or 7 decades have turned them into "ponies", giving them braids and weird clothes and treating them like they're more important than any human being could possibly be? Does that erase literally millenia of the horse being the single most important animal to human propagation throughout the world?
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 23, 2015 17:39:54 GMT
Because you mentioned YouTube, SD, I did find this one: Frankly, I was surprised. Is it as good as a border collie at the Nationals? No, but that's not surprising. After all, herding is instinctive for collies, and they've literally been bred for it. The trainers seem happy, though. How good are they at water retrieving? I honestly can't tell; I couldn't find a reference. Guide dog? Police dog? Again, not sure. But the German Shepherds seem to have cornered those occupations. Humanity has bred breeds for what we want. A border collie could never beat a greyhound in a race, no matter how smart he is. If you leave a collie alone, it'll go crazy from boredom. If you leave a bulldog alone, it might not even notice you're gone. It's what works for you. As for toy breeds, I know they've brought happiness and companionship to lonely people, so I can't say they are useless. Both dog and person benefit, after all, even if they're not my cup of tea. Dog intelligence usually ranks border collies at the top, although some put the Australian shepherd first, and a few the poodle. Like I said, there's controversy over methodology. Frankly, I've had good dogs that were rocket scientists, and some that...weren't. But they were still affectionate, playful, and fun companions. And I wouldn't trade the mutts I've owned over the years for any purebred whatever--you don't trade family members (much as I'm tempted for certain human ones ). And calling them "French" poodles does the breed a disservice. The breed originated in Germany, after all.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 24, 2015 5:28:39 GMT
I can agree that point.
And that one as well. Perhaps thats when it started to go sour.
But this is where I ask that the thread be split and this discussion be placed in a Myth research thread, I think we have enough evidence to call a genuine myth here...?...
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 24, 2015 5:46:28 GMT
Which? Dog intelligence testing?
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 24, 2015 6:17:47 GMT
Which? Dog intelligence testing? Yes, on the grounds of the myth that the [toy]puddle is more intelligent. Or on the grounds that Australian sheep dog or collie is MUCH more intelligent than the puddle.... And include IQ testing as part of that myth... can you IQ test a dog?...
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 24, 2015 11:23:47 GMT
I'd say you can't. Heck, humans can't even be tested in any reliable way. We can get a good idea of intelligence level by some standard tests, but it's been argued for years that IQ tests focus mainly on mathematical and geometric intelligence and that doesn't measure social intelligence, creative intelligence and so on and I have to agree with that point.
There are plenty of examples of people in the world who can figure out and "take advantage of" any social situation, but struggle with 6+6-3, or people who can learn to play (and even master) several instruments and complex pieces of music incredibly quickly, but would be completely lost in a game of Tetris because they have very poor spacial awareness. According to standardized intelligence tests, these people would by no means have a high IQ, but it's plain for anyone to see that they can't exactly be stupid.
As I noted a couple of years ago in a discussion we all had about IQ tests (I think it was here, but it might have been on the old Disco board), I've taken several tests over the years and have posted dramatically different results. So dramatically different, in fact, that one result showed me to be in the "low normal spectrum" of IQ, while another result would have put me in the top 30% of the Mensa community. I don't remember what the numbers they came up with were, because quite frankly, I stopped caring about those results when I realized why they were so dramatically different.
The reason? Two words: Mental state
On the one where I scored in the "low normal spectrum" (IIRC, the number was between 80 and 85), I was having some problems in my life and generally had difficulty focusing on anything. I was stressed out, depressed, sleep deprived, had isolated myself socially for about a month and was even a little malnourished.
On the one where I scored highly (IIRC, it was somewhere between 150 and 160), I was on top of the world. I was getting the sleep I needed, I had just got myself a new job that I was happy with, I had recently fallen in love and was over the moon about that, I was exercising regularly and eating right.
You can't seriously tell me that my inate, basic intelligence, which is what these tests claim to measure, can jump 70-80 points in as little as a year. Something's off there!
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Post by the light works on Aug 24, 2015 14:56:16 GMT
in questioning intelligence of pets, let me point out there is no such thing as a "working breed cat"
and with that joke out of the way, let me point out the problem is finding a valid metric. someone is credited with saying "if you gauge intelligence on ability to climb trees, fish would be the world's biggest idiots"
I believe it is probably the standard poodle that makes the intelligence list, not the toy poodle. my own contact with poodles is limited to one of my wife's customers who would bring the poodle in twice a month to get cut close, and get the burrs brushed out of its coat - and then take it back home to patrol their vineyard for interlopers such as raccoons and possums. - and another that was so conditioned to be picky that failure to feed it the only proper brand of raw meat dog food would result in immediate gastrological distress.
as for intelligence testing, there must be a combination of ability to learn complex tasks, and problem solving ability. - but abilities which border on instinctive must be excluded from consideration. after all, nobody would consider a Corgi's ability to avoid being kicked in the head by a cow to not be benefitting from a natural advantage.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 24, 2015 16:30:18 GMT
We also shouldn't consider "lack of interest" in doing something as "lack of intelligence." I owned an Akita. She was an extremely smart dog but in no way would do something she didn't want to do. If you tried to get her to do something she wasn't interested in doing, she would give you a look like "I don't have a clue what you are talking about." It came across like she was stupid. She was anything but.
She was also the most loyal dog I've ever owned. When I was going through Chemotherapy an number of years ago, she sensed something was wrong and wouldn't leave my side. It got a little annoying as every time I would sit down, she would come over and lay down on my feet. She would look up at me as saying, "I'm here if you need me."
I've also owned a number of Husky's. Now THERE'S stupid.
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Post by the light works on Aug 24, 2015 17:05:10 GMT
We also shouldn't consider "lack of interest" in doing something as "lack of intelligence." I owned an Akita. She was an extremely smart dog but in no way would do something she didn't want to do. If you tried to get her to do something she wasn't interested in doing, she would give you a look like "I don't have a clue what you are talking about." It came across like she was stupid. She was anything but. She was also the most loyal dog I've ever owned. When I was going through Chemotherapy an number of years ago, she sensed something was wrong and wouldn't leave my side. It got a little annoying as every time I would sit down, she would come over and lay down on my feet. She would look up at me as saying, "I'm here if you need me." I've also owned a number of Husky's. Now THERE'S stupid. this one never did quite grasp the concept of "stairs" Attachment Deleted
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 24, 2015 17:47:38 GMT
We also shouldn't consider "lack of interest" in doing something as "lack of intelligence." I owned an Akita. She was an extremely smart dog but in no way would do something she didn't want to do. If you tried to get her to do something she wasn't interested in doing, she would give you a look like "I don't have a clue what you are talking about." It came across like she was stupid. She was anything but. She was also the most loyal dog I've ever owned. When I was going through Chemotherapy an number of years ago, she sensed something was wrong and wouldn't leave my side. It got a little annoying as every time I would sit down, she would come over and lay down on my feet. She would look up at me as saying, "I'm here if you need me." I've also owned a number of Husky's. Now THERE'S stupid. After my dad had a stroke, the family Cocker Spaniel acted just like your Akita. Even though my dad didn't walk him, feed him, and couldn't do much more than pet him occasionally, he sat at his bedside or next to his chair almost every minute. And yup, I don't care what any poor, ignorant cat person claims about "anthropomorphizing", that dog pretty well communicated that same "I'm here if you need me". He was definitely smart. He was the first dog we had that had a real vocabulary. Fpr example, he recognized family members and his toys by name, and could execute requests (never commands) like "Go bring Dad your red ball". Occasionally, we'd have home health care people visiting. After they were introduced to the dog, my mother would usually say "Charlie, take him to dad", at which point he'd climb the stairs to the landing, then look back at the visitor as if to say "Well? Are you coming?" and them proceed to lead the visitor to my father's bedroom, always making sure they stayed 3-4 feet behind him. He seemed to consider it his job.
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Post by the light works on Aug 24, 2015 17:53:10 GMT
We also shouldn't consider "lack of interest" in doing something as "lack of intelligence." I owned an Akita. She was an extremely smart dog but in no way would do something she didn't want to do. If you tried to get her to do something she wasn't interested in doing, she would give you a look like "I don't have a clue what you are talking about." It came across like she was stupid. She was anything but. She was also the most loyal dog I've ever owned. When I was going through Chemotherapy an number of years ago, she sensed something was wrong and wouldn't leave my side. It got a little annoying as every time I would sit down, she would come over and lay down on my feet. She would look up at me as saying, "I'm here if you need me." I've also owned a number of Husky's. Now THERE'S stupid. After my dad had a stroke, the family Cocker Spaniel acted just like your Akita. Even though my dad didn't walk him, feed him, and couldn't do much more than pet him occasionally, he sat at his bedside or next to his chair almost every minute. And yup, I don't care what any poor, ignorant cat person claims about "anthropomorphizing", that dog pretty well communicated that same "I'm here if you need me". He was definitely smart. He was the first dog we had that had a real vocabulary. Fpr example, he recognized family members and his toys by name, and could execute requests (never commands) like "Go bring Dad your red ball". Occasionally, we'd have home health care people visiting. After they were introduced to the dog, my mother would usually say "Charlie, take him to dad", at which point he'd climb the stairs to the landing, then look back at the visitor as if to say "Well? Are you coming?" and them proceed to lead the visitor to my father's bedroom, always making sure they stayed 3-4 feet behind him. He seemed to consider it his job. That's impressive for a cocker. after the surge in popularity after Lady and the Tramp, the best description of a Cocker's intelligence is "defective"
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 24, 2015 18:03:39 GMT
That's impressive for a cocker. after the surge in popularity after Lady and the Tramp, the best description of a Cocker's intelligence is "defective" I'm sure one size doesn't fit all, but yes, "defective" would also describe by sister's Cocker. That dog had a favorite stuffed "toy." One day, it decided that the toy had died and kept burying it in the back yard. It would then go into depression and sit on the "grave" and quite literally cry. Only to dig the toy up and do it all again. My sister spent a fortune on psychological counseling for that dog. She (my sister) also had to remove all the night lights from the house. The dog insisted on eating the bulbs.
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Post by the light works on Aug 24, 2015 18:16:31 GMT
That's impressive for a cocker. after the surge in popularity after Lady and the Tramp, the best description of a Cocker's intelligence is "defective" I'm sure one size doesn't fit all, but yes, "defective" would also describe by sister's Cocker. That dog had a favorite stuffed "toy." One day, it decided that the toy had died and kept burying it in the back yard. It would then go into depression and sit on the "grave" and quite literally cry. Only to dig the toy up and do it all again. My sister spent a fortune on psychological counseling for that dog. She (my sister) also had to remove all the night lights from the house. The dog insisted on eating the bulbs. I'm sure there are a few that haven't been overbred, but the majority are from puppy mill ancestry that placed a premium on long floppy ears and didn't require any mental process other than how to manufacture more furry little profit makers.
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Post by ironhold on Aug 24, 2015 19:14:32 GMT
The poodle I inherited from my grandmother is a little doggy doofus, but then again he's been through quite a bit and so may simply be rather addled.
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