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Post by silverdragon on Feb 24, 2018 8:31:57 GMT
Just a point on Video games that I heard used against the idea that video games of violence cause violence... There was a period in living history, where masses of men were in ACTUAL combat, WW2, was there an increase in domestic violence when they returned home from whatever hell hole they had been in?. Discount the usual expected return home to find there is no home to return to cases, I am on about the average joe. What about Vietnam vets on your side?. Are they more likely or less or about the same as everyone else to have a tendency to violence?. Those who didnt get detained under the mental health act that is. I suspect would be difficult to tell exactly what happened in terms of domestic violence after WW2 compare to today, back then people often did not report things that happened between a husband and wife, unless it was really serious. Police officers would often not get involved if it was "just a domestic". It seems like almost a half our vets return from combat today suffer from PTSD. I'm sure the vets returning from WWII also suffered at the same rate but it wasn't recognized. Back then the treatment was "get get over it". Seeing how being exposed to violent combat negatively affects so many people, what makes you think that simulated violent combat in video games doesn't? Have we ever detected PTSD from playing violent video games? Have we ever looked for it? Domestic violence doesnt make the front page as a mass shooting. Its exactly the same, in that there are cases of domestic violence amongst the gaming community that is no more or less average when compared to a non gaming family unit. How many of them took to the streets hight trained with weapons and started shooting up their community?. That WOULD have been reported. And as their recent experience had been REAL world hell hole, it would have been a concern, because it would have proven a deterioration on mental health amongst the veteran community... Oh wait, it HAS been noted, Vietnam. How more or less likely is the numbers of Vietnam Vet when compared to similar numbers on non combatants in that theatre to contain problematic gun owners who go around doing mass shootings?. This is the comparison, take 100,000 people who have been in some war zone, some REAL hell hole, and 100,000 people who have never been to war, and see who has the more gun crazy community, the more cases of death by Gun. Then compare that to America. Is it just that the place is so vast and has that HUGE number of people that statistics be damned, the more people you have the more likely you are going to find whackadoodles, or is it that America has a problem. 380 million people, you will get problems. Give them the legal right to bear arms, they will use them on each other eventually.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 24, 2018 8:35:13 GMT
Question, "For the record", what was he doing, was he trying to get an accurate description, trying to summon assistance, trying to get an accurate direction to be running, or just stood there scared outa his wits because this is his first experience of this in real life?. YES he should have moved, but is there any extenuating circumstance, such as giving fist aid to a wounded person?.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 24, 2018 8:54:01 GMT
and a lot more people are wondering how people can still believe in the myth of the "good guy with a gun" Exactly. Arm the teachers... yeah. From my own fathers experience with TAG unit Greater Manchester... not all coppers here in UK pass the firearms exams, but they are still coppers, so, you want to arm teachers, all teachers, and you think they will be "as good" as trained armed guards who have passed the test?. There is no shame in not being able to pull the trigger when faced with another persons life. Its called being human. All of us who have had military training have been, in some way, psyche profiled, in how likely we are to just stand there and freeze when it comes to being faced with an enemy and having to decide "Him of me". I know in my case, its Him. How much that was represented on my psyche profile i will never know, I dont want to know to be honest, its never been an issue, what would knowing prove in any way anyway? How does that speak of my own mentality?. only that I passed the firearms training. I have NEVER in my whole life had to make the decision... I was one of the "Backroom boys" in my career, out of sight, out of mind [?invisible idiot?] somewhere on a heavly defended base, keeping the toys in order so someone else could take them to the sharp end of the battlefield(s). However, being told to train my weapon on a kid?. That would have been beyond my pay grade. So discounting HIGHLY trained police officers who have had the right psyche profiling and are proven to not be liable to go ape-sh*t at a kid for the 100th time of asking where his homework was [... erm... I was that kid?.....] and having been given extensive multi-weapon training to recognise from the sharp end what is being pointed at and know how to differentiate between real and water pistol, all that whilst keeping up with the current level of teacher training............. Just Who the hell are these super-powered teachers you are expecting to be able to find who want that type of job in the first place?. Going back to my Fathers time, the Police of Manchester were polled, just for the knowledge of being asked and not for any kind of decision, how they would react to being asked if they would carry a side-arm. This was a "Just for asking no action will be taken at all" reassurance question, and a totally free vote. 80% indicated they would hand back their commission and leave the police force. From my mothers side, she being a teacher, I can assure you that that would have been 100% of any teacher you asked in the UK, now and then.... So asking just for the asking here, how many teachers in USA on being asked to carry a firearm are going to say "Sod that for a game of soldiers" and go find something easier to do for a job, like teaching trees to drink water. Of those left, how many of them will pass the psyche profile to be given the extensive training?. And then, how many of those that have got that far will pass the training. What do I suspect?. I suspect I will be able to take them all home after training and to their jobs in just one small family sedan.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 24, 2018 9:55:09 GMT
This should be in the how stupid thread, but as its related to current discussion?... www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43178014You didnt do dat did ya?.. Oh Yes They Did?...Oh yess. Hashtag FAIL in an epic way...........
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Post by the light works on Feb 24, 2018 12:08:10 GMT
there was an interview with an armed teacher from Colorado. in the interview, he displayed his pistol for the interviewer = the time it took him to get it free of his clothing in a NON stress situation would be sufficient for any active shooter to recognize that he was going for a gun and shoot him multiple times.
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Post by mrfatso on Feb 24, 2018 13:48:21 GMT
there was an interview with an armed teacher from Colorado. in the interview, he displayed his pistol for the interviewer = the time it took him to get it free of his clothing in a NON stress situation would be sufficient for any active shooter to recognize that he was going for a gun and shoot him multiple times. The episode with Nran and Jon testing jumping over an oncoming car shows human reaction time is around 1 second plenty of time to get shot.
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Post by the light works on Feb 24, 2018 14:10:17 GMT
there was an interview with an armed teacher from Colorado. in the interview, he displayed his pistol for the interviewer = the time it took him to get it free of his clothing in a NON stress situation would be sufficient for any active shooter to recognize that he was going for a gun and shoot him multiple times. The episode with Nran and Jon testing jumping over an oncoming car shows human reaction time is around 1 second plenty of time to get shot. one of our firefighters who went over to the dark side amused himself at one of our drills by demonstrating why you don't let the bad guy get within ten yards of you without having him under firm control. from 5, he could pull YOUR sideclip knife out of YOUR pocket and "cut" you with it before you could stop him. (note these aren't knives carried as a weapon, but they are weapon-capable enough to raise eyebrows in the UK. I have mine in my rope gear jumpsuit as a safety knife.) www.knife-depot.com/blog/5-reasons-ditch-pocket-clip/
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 24, 2018 14:54:38 GMT
and a lot more people are wondering how people can still believe in the myth of the "good guy with a gun" Exactly. Arm the teachers... yeah. From my own fathers experience with TAG unit Greater Manchester... not all coppers here in UK pass the firearms exams, but they are still coppers, so, you want to arm teachers, all teachers, and you think they will be "as good" as trained armed guards who have passed the test?. There is no shame in not being able to pull the trigger when faced with another persons life. Its called being human. All of us who have had military training have been, in some way, psyche profiled, in how likely we are to just stand there and freeze when it comes to being faced with an enemy and having to decide "Him of me". I know in my case, its Him. How much that was represented on my psyche profile i will never know, I dont want to know to be honest, its never been an issue, what would knowing prove in any way anyway? How does that speak of my own mentality?. only that I passed the firearms training. I have NEVER in my whole life had to make the decision... I was one of the "Backroom boys" in my career, out of sight, out of mind [?invisible idiot?] somewhere on a heavly defended base, keeping the toys in order so someone else could take them to the sharp end of the battlefield(s). However, being told to train my weapon on a kid?. That would have been beyond my pay grade. So discounting HIGHLY trained police officers who have had the right psyche profiling and are proven to not be liable to go ape-sh*t at a kid for the 100th time of asking where his homework was [... erm... I was that kid?.....] and having been given extensive multi-weapon training to recognise from the sharp end what is being pointed at and know how to differentiate between real and water pistol, all that whilst keeping up with the current level of teacher training............. Just Who the hell are these super-powered teachers you are expecting to be able to find who want that type of job in the first place?. Going back to my Fathers time, the Police of Manchester were polled, just for the knowledge of being asked and not for any kind of decision, how they would react to being asked if they would carry a side-arm. This was a "Just for asking no action will be taken at all" reassurance question, and a totally free vote. 80% indicated they would hand back their commission and leave the police force. From my mothers side, she being a teacher, I can assure you that that would have been 100% of any teacher you asked in the UK, now and then.... So asking just for the asking here, how many teachers in USA on being asked to carry a firearm are going to say "Sod that for a game of soldiers" and go find something easier to do for a job, like teaching trees to drink water. Of those left, how many of them will pass the psyche profile to be given the extensive training?. And then, how many of those that have got that far will pass the training. What do I suspect?. I suspect I will be able to take them all home after training and to their jobs in just one small family sedan. A large high school in the United States has over 150 teachers and support personnel. Do you not think you could find a handful that are able and more than willing to take on the additional responsibility of a back-up security force? Maybe someone should try asking and see how many volunteers we get. Then we can discuss how it could never work. Is the answer to school shootings training some teachers to be back up security? No, of course it's not. But it could be part of an overall plan.
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Post by ironhold on Feb 24, 2018 18:52:12 GMT
Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of people putting forward variations on the notion that military veterans - especially ones that are otherwise unemployed or underemployed - be given the training and certification necessary so that they could serve as armed school security.
The logic is that the veterans would already have weapons training, and so represent a ready pool of potential candidates.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 24, 2018 19:19:15 GMT
Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of people putting forward variations on the notion that military veterans - especially ones that are otherwise unemployed or underemployed - be given the training and certification necessary so that they could serve as armed school security. The logic is that the veterans would already have weapons training, and so represent a ready pool of potential candidates. There are a lot of ideas being tossed around, some good and some not so good, but at least they are being discussed. I don't see us ever having a 100% solution, but I believe the best solution to reducing the problem is going to be a multi-fang approach. Some gun control, better background check, better monitoring and treatment of mentally unstable people, and hardened security at schools. Hopefully the discussion will continue and result in some positive actions rather than fall off the table at the next major news event.
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Post by the light works on Feb 24, 2018 23:37:28 GMT
Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of people putting forward variations on the notion that military veterans - especially ones that are otherwise unemployed or underemployed - be given the training and certification necessary so that they could serve as armed school security. The logic is that the veterans would already have weapons training, and so represent a ready pool of potential candidates. there would still have to be some significant vetting. also, military weapons training won't necessarily transfer to being the designated first victim in a mass shooter scenario.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 25, 2018 1:03:39 GMT
Meanwhile, I've seen a lot of people putting forward variations on the notion that military veterans - especially ones that are otherwise unemployed or underemployed - be given the training and certification necessary so that they could serve as armed school security. The logic is that the veterans would already have weapons training, and so represent a ready pool of potential candidates. there would still have to be some significant vetting. also, military weapons training won't necessarily transfer to being the designated first victim in a mass shooter scenario. I would think that the decision to allow armed personnel in any school would call for significant vetting and additional training regardless of past experience. Be it former military, police or teachers with previous arms training. I'm certainly not for just handing out guns to any teacher that volunteers.
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Post by Lokifan on Feb 25, 2018 1:33:58 GMT
Far from being a fantasy, here are a few examples of good guys with guns stopping assailants: www.cnn.com/2017/05/03/us/homeowner-gun-photo-trnd/index.htmlwww.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/24/tennessee-church-usher-who-stopped-gunman-is-hailed-as-hero.htmlwww.kmov.com/story/35702690/homeowner-restrains-intruder-with-duct-tape-until-police-show-upwww.denverpost.com/2007/12/10/guards-hands-didnt-even-shake-as-she-shot-gunman/boston.cbslocal.com/2016/01/05/manchester-police-woman-65-years-old-shoots-robber/apnews.com/fdf7ef4ed2d3473399c98215a64e6de5?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APwww.ksat.com/news/watch-ksats-erica-hernandez-first-at-scene-gives-firsthand-account-of-mass-church-shootingAs for the Broward sheriff's department, they are many things, but I wouldn't call someone who sits and listens to 17 children being murdered "good". Especially when their job is to protect those children, and they have the training and alleged expertise to at least attempt to deal with the situation. As for speed drawing, it should be obvious that that is not required. Having an armed teacher(s) on site, but unknown to the shooter, adds an element of uncertainty to their plans. They don't know where the resistance is coming from. They aren't looking for a fight; they just want a slaughter, and that unknown gun gets in the way of that slaughter. As shown in the numerous examples above, as soon as armed resistance showed up, the shooter usually surrendered or suicided. That seems to be the best outcome, no? And the teachers aren't being required to arm themselves--they are simply given the option. What do real teachers think? Hundreds of teachers sign up for free gun training in OhioThis atrocity showed the complete failure of the government at multiple levels. The FBI ignored multiple warnings. The Broward Sheriff ignored 37 incidents (including weapons use). The school system itself identified the shooter as a violent person. The sheriff (again) stood by idly while the murder took place--it was only when an off duty Palm Beach officer showed up that anything was done--and apparently, the Broward sheriff LIED outright about having cleared the school prior to that. Armed teachers? I remember some I had that were ex-military. I'd trust them, at the least. It seems that some want the teachers to die for their children, but not fight for them. That seems wrong to me. Too political yet?
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Post by the light works on Feb 25, 2018 3:02:44 GMT
Far from being a fantasy, here are a few examples of good guys with guns stopping assailants: www.cnn.com/2017/05/03/us/homeowner-gun-photo-trnd/index.htmlwww.foxnews.com/us/2017/09/24/tennessee-church-usher-who-stopped-gunman-is-hailed-as-hero.htmlwww.kmov.com/story/35702690/homeowner-restrains-intruder-with-duct-tape-until-police-show-upwww.denverpost.com/2007/12/10/guards-hands-didnt-even-shake-as-she-shot-gunman/boston.cbslocal.com/2016/01/05/manchester-police-woman-65-years-old-shoots-robber/apnews.com/fdf7ef4ed2d3473399c98215a64e6de5?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=APwww.ksat.com/news/watch-ksats-erica-hernandez-first-at-scene-gives-firsthand-account-of-mass-church-shootingAs for the Broward sheriff's department, they are many things, but I wouldn't call someone who sits and listens to 17 children being murdered "good". Especially when their job is to protect those children, and they have the training and alleged expertise to at least attempt to deal with the situation. As for speed drawing, it should be obvious that that is not required. Having an armed teacher(s) on site, but unknown to the shooter, adds an element of uncertainty to their plans. They don't know where the resistance is coming from. They aren't looking for a fight; they just want a slaughter, and that unknown gun gets in the way of that slaughter. As shown in the numerous examples above, as soon as armed resistance showed up, the shooter usually surrendered or suicided. That seems to be the best outcome, no? And the teachers aren't being required to arm themselves--they are simply given the option. What do real teachers think? Hundreds of teachers sign up for free gun training in OhioThis atrocity showed the complete failure of the government at multiple levels. The FBI ignored multiple warnings. The Broward Sheriff ignored 37 incidents (including weapons use). The school system itself identified the shooter as a violent person. The sheriff (again) stood by idly while the murder took place--it was only when an off duty Palm Beach officer showed up that anything was done--and apparently, the Broward sheriff LIED outright about having cleared the school prior to that. Armed teachers? I remember some I had that were ex-military. I'd trust them, at the least. It seems that some want the teachers to die for their children, but not fight for them. That seems wrong to me. Too political yet? CNN story was a burglar. Tennessee usher "physically engaged" the gunman, not grabbing a gun until later. the duct tape homeowner was dealing with an INTRUDER who was making himself at home. the "guard" was an off duty police officer the manchester (new Hampshire) woman was dealing with a burglar. the pennsylvania man, agains, was facing intruders. and in the texas church, the "good guy" didn't open fire until the bad guy was already fleeing the scene. so we have one case in which a professional intervened in a shooting, and a lot of examples of not a mass shooting, and one where the good guy with a gun restarted the firefight after the shooter was done. but we do agree there was a failure - which includes a failure to keep an efficient killing tool out of the hands of a guy who wanted to make a name for himself by shooting up a school the good news is that in the past week or so, FIVE others have been stopped, not by a good guy with a gun, but by a good guy with a phone. - and at least one made statements about wanting to make headlines.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 25, 2018 3:44:28 GMT
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 25, 2018 7:15:40 GMT
The episode with Nran and Jon testing jumping over an oncoming car shows human reaction time is around 1 second plenty of time to get shot. one of our firefighters who went over to the dark side amused himself at one of our drills by demonstrating why you don't let the bad guy get within ten yards of you without having him under firm control. from 5, he could pull YOUR sideclip knife out of YOUR pocket and "cut" you with it before you could stop him. (note these aren't knives carried as a weapon, but they are weapon-capable enough to raise eyebrows in the UK. I have mine in my rope gear jumpsuit as a safety knife.) www.knife-depot.com/blog/5-reasons-ditch-pocket-clip/I carry a multi-tool combination-knife-screwdriver-get-boyscout-outa'-horses-hooves thing [not "swiss army type", one of better quality...] at all times as part of my keys, it unclips to be used without all the keys, bit its there, because its a legal less than 2 inch knife blade and I am disabled, wheelchair, "We come in pieces". I would not use a pocket clip, because, it tells everyone else where the knife is, if you dont know where your knife is already yourself, you probably dont carry a towel. {ask Douglas Adams about that?..] There is no situation I can think of where getting at your knife quicker is better than having it away on your toes... Except maybe on the deck of a Crab boat, or maybe in a firefighting situation, and for them, I have a better knife that has its own holster that has belt loops?. Its a situational thing, when working, I kept a sharp box knife in my pocket, 3inch one piece blade in sheath, it needed to be strong to cut bindings where necessary, now?. I just need "something" that can pry small stones out of 'chair tyres or tighten the hand grips on the wheels. If it comes to self defence, I have walking stick and know how to use it?..
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 25, 2018 7:26:50 GMT
On the shooting theme, part of my training, many decades ago, was how to disarm a side-arm when poked at your face. If, and this is a BIG if, it its me-and-my-family and I have a gun to my face, and I know they aint bluffing, I am going to give it a go, if it becomes possible, because thats what being a father is all about. If its just "Give me your wallet", I am letting them have it, but if its more serious?.. If its more than one person, I aint a fool, I also aint no "Gibbs mob" NCIS team that can disarm all of them at the same time whilst ensuring no shots are fired.
But to find "One good guy with a gun" that aint been shot already in a crowd of panicked people?.. chances are, mighty rare, you got more chance finding a polar bear than the one good guy with a gun.
Otherwise, yes, the solution is going to be on MANY fronts, and may involve nopes Wall being built in sections around all schools and a rather invasive search akin to Airport security at all gates for the students.
But then the assailant will just wait outside?.
Better reporting procedures and checking of all "This guy is stone cold blue chip added Stilton FRUITCAKE" reports to find and deal with all known nut cases that could be terrorists if not held in check.
But the ultimate answer is LESS guns.
So how are you going to deal with that?.
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Post by Lokifan on Feb 25, 2018 9:50:33 GMT
So, burglars are not dangerous? Don't be silly. Home invasions are a serious crime and often lead to rape or murder. But, more to the point, what difference does it make if it's one or a mass shooting? If a good guy with a gun stops the crime, that's a good thing, no? But, if you want to limit it to just possible mass shootings: Do citizens (not police officers) with guns ever stop mass shootings?First, the disclaimer from the article: The author goes on to list quite a few. Any nitpicking I'll leave as an exercise for the reader. The layered defense is best. The last resort would be the armed teacher--if a teacher is brave enough to cover his kids with his own body, to the point of getting killed, well--I'm certain we could find a few who could be trained and willing to shoot back. Again, not everyone could, but just letting it be known that the former "gun free zone" might have targets that shoot back would obviously deter some shooters--or else they'd be shooting up other areas, wouldn't they? In this case, there was such a massive failure that the "good guy with a gun", ie: the Broward Sheriff, wasn't. The four deputies that sat out in the parking lot and listened to the murders were not good guys in any stretch of the imagination. There is also a story supposedly from a responding EMT. Allegedly, the EMTs were kept from the scene by the scene commander, and as such at least one victim didn't get help for 45 minutes. The EMTs supposedly were arguing for the right to run in to evacuate the victims, as they were trained to do (even under fire), but the scene commander was insisting that they couldn't until the sheriff okayed it. If this turns out to be true, it's starting to look increasingly like gross criminal negligence by at least some of the authorities. As for keeping guns out of the hands of nutcases, do you recall that we tried banning all AR-15s and many other "assault weapons" for 10 years? The result: No change in crimes committed with these guns. Besides, rifles (of any type) are only used in about 2% of gun crimes--handguns are the usual choice, followed by shotguns, last I checked. In California, it's now the law that a CHP (California Highway Patrol) officer is assigned to each road crew working on the highways. If we can afford that, we can afford beefed up security (including officers) at the schools. Note: It is my opinion that Broward County Sheriffs need not apply.
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Post by the light works on Feb 25, 2018 15:05:55 GMT
except if the shooter WAS a shooter and not some other form of crook, the first you knew there was a problem would be when he shot you. Because if he suspected you had a gun, you would be the first person he shot.
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Post by the light works on Feb 25, 2018 15:14:57 GMT
one of our firefighters who went over to the dark side amused himself at one of our drills by demonstrating why you don't let the bad guy get within ten yards of you without having him under firm control. from 5, he could pull YOUR sideclip knife out of YOUR pocket and "cut" you with it before you could stop him. (note these aren't knives carried as a weapon, but they are weapon-capable enough to raise eyebrows in the UK. I have mine in my rope gear jumpsuit as a safety knife.) www.knife-depot.com/blog/5-reasons-ditch-pocket-clip/I carry a multi-tool combination-knife-screwdriver-get-boyscout-outa'-horses-hooves thing [not "swiss army type", one of better quality...] at all times as part of my keys, it unclips to be used without all the keys, bit its there, because its a legal less than 2 inch knife blade and I am disabled, wheelchair, "We come in pieces". I would not use a pocket clip, because, it tells everyone else where the knife is, if you dont know where your knife is already yourself, you probably dont carry a towel. {ask Douglas Adams about that?..] There is no situation I can think of where getting at your knife quicker is better than having it away on your toes... Except maybe on the deck of a Crab boat, or maybe in a firefighting situation, and for them, I have a better knife that has its own holster that has belt loops?. Its a situational thing, when working, I kept a sharp box knife in my pocket, 3inch one piece blade in sheath, it needed to be strong to cut bindings where necessary, now?. I just need "something" that can pry small stones out of 'chair tyres or tighten the hand grips on the wheels. If it comes to self defence, I have walking stick and know how to use it?.. I carry this in my back pocket full time. it has a keychain ring, but it is the only thing in that pocket, so it is easy to grab. as you say, if I am in a situation where getting to a knife quickly is important (in which case running is 95% of the time a useless or counterproductive option) then I have a more appropriate knife either added to a pocket or in an added pocket. which is usually this knife.
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