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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 4, 2018 0:22:22 GMT
And while you have the crayons out, color me not surprised that that an arm of the Center for American Progress (thinkprogress) would publish anything that doesn't push gun control.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 2:26:32 GMT
And while you have the crayons out, color me not surprised that that an arm of the Center for American Progress (thinkprogress) would publish anything that doesn't push gun control. so I guess now we just have to decide whether "the president of the NRA said so" is more bankable than "we have performed studies" and "this is what has been happening in the past"
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 4, 2018 3:20:55 GMT
And while you have the crayons out, color me not surprised that that an arm of the Center for American Progress (thinkprogress) would publish anything that doesn't push gun control. so I guess now we just have to decide whether "the president of the NRA said so" is more bankable than "we have performed studies" and "this is what has been happening in the past" I wouldn't run to the bank with what any of them say. You can "study" all day long and still come to any conclusion you want as you can also cherry pick your historical data. Here's what I do know, not based on studies or cherry picked history, but just my own observations and a little common sense. Guns, by themselves, don't kill people, so regulating just guns will do nothing. You have to regulate the people holding the gun. We have way too many guns in our country and many are in the wrong hands. There are many people that should not be allowed to have a gun. Identifying who these people are isn't always easy but I feel we could do much better. I'm not at all opposed to some forms of gun control. My main objections is to just "feel good" gun control that makes it hard for people that should be able to buy a gun to have one, and does nothing to keep guns from people that shouldn't have them. If making it harder for good people to buy a firearm reduces the number of bad people getting them, then so be it. It's a small price to pay. I think that whatever we end up doing about gun control should be on a national level. None of this state by state garbage. As for the NRA, I don't see them as the boogie man that many on the left do, but I do believe they could be doing a lot more than they are to promote gun safety and keeping guns out of the wrong hands. As for our schools and other soft targets, we can do a lot to cut down on the risk without even mentioning guns.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 3:47:53 GMT
so I guess now we just have to decide whether "the president of the NRA said so" is more bankable than "we have performed studies" and "this is what has been happening in the past" I wouldn't run to the bank with what any of them say. You can "study" all day long and still come to any conclusion you want as you can also cherry pick your historical data. Here's what I do know, not based on studies or cherry picked history, but just my own observations and a little common sense. Guns, by themselves, don't kill people, so regulating just guns will do nothing. You have to regulate the people holding the gun. We have way too many guns in our country and many are in the wrong hands. There are many people that should not be allowed to have a gun. Identifying who these people are isn't always easy but I feel we could do much better. I'm not at all opposed to some forms of gun control. My main objections is to just "feel good" gun control that makes it hard for people that should be able to buy a gun to have one, and does nothing to keep guns from people that shouldn't have them. If making it harder for good people to buy a firearm reduces the number of bad people getting them, then so be it. It's a small price to pay. I think that whatever we end up doing about gun control should be on a national level. None of this state by state garbage. As for the NRA, I don't see them as the boogie man that many on the left do, but I do believe they could be doing a lot more than they are to promote gun safety and keeping guns out of the wrong hands. As for our schools and other soft targets, we can do a lot to cut down on the risk without even mentioning guns. 1: a user's licensing program would make it slightly easier for qualified people to acquire guns, and harder for unqualified people to. 2: absolutely national standards. guns may be restricted in illinois, but exporting guns to illinois is legal in all the surrounding states. 3: I think the NRA has lost their way. they've gone from promoting gun safety to promoting gun sales. 4: we can do a lot just by being more attentive to mental health.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 4, 2018 4:44:22 GMT
I wouldn't run to the bank with what any of them say. You can "study" all day long and still come to any conclusion you want as you can also cherry pick your historical data. Here's what I do know, not based on studies or cherry picked history, but just my own observations and a little common sense. Guns, by themselves, don't kill people, so regulating just guns will do nothing. You have to regulate the people holding the gun. We have way too many guns in our country and many are in the wrong hands. There are many people that should not be allowed to have a gun. Identifying who these people are isn't always easy but I feel we could do much better. I'm not at all opposed to some forms of gun control. My main objections is to just "feel good" gun control that makes it hard for people that should be able to buy a gun to have one, and does nothing to keep guns from people that shouldn't have them. If making it harder for good people to buy a firearm reduces the number of bad people getting them, then so be it. It's a small price to pay. I think that whatever we end up doing about gun control should be on a national level. None of this state by state garbage. As for the NRA, I don't see them as the boogie man that many on the left do, but I do believe they could be doing a lot more than they are to promote gun safety and keeping guns out of the wrong hands. As for our schools and other soft targets, we can do a lot to cut down on the risk without even mentioning guns. 1: a user's licensing program would make it slightly easier for qualified people to acquire guns, and harder for unqualified people to. 2: absolutely national standards. guns may be restricted in illinois, but exporting guns to illinois is legal in all the surrounding states. 3: I think the NRA has lost their way. they've gone from promoting gun safety to promoting gun sales. 4: we can do a lot just by being more attentive to mental health. Nice to see there are at least few things on which we can agree.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 4, 2018 9:00:12 GMT
I absolutely mean “tax”. How is it The government can tax one Constitutionally defined right , but not another? You can’t pick and choose based on feels. If they find the NFA tax stamp for $200 is not infringing your right to keep and bear arms, then how does a poll tax not follow the same rationale? In many ways the ballot box is more dangerous than any gun. that's how. now, if I mail my ballot in, instead of hand delivering it to a ballot box, I have to pay for the stamp. that is legal, since it is counted the same, either way. Open for discussion, I support the ideal that if you are not by choice contributing towards the system then you are not entitles to have a say in how its run. By mistake, we all make mistake, but of you have chosen on purpose to deny the Gobmint taxation, then you choose to NOT be part of the society?. Caveats, if by reasons of Unemployment or Disability you are receiving benefits, your Poll Tax should be contributed FOR you by the Gobmint, if you have perhaps my mistake missed a payment, there should be some wiggle room on that, but, if by fraud or deliberate action you have refused to pay, your right to vote should be suspended until FULL restitution has been made. Or at least until it has been agreed that you are in the process of making that restitution. There has been discussion on the right of Prisoners. However, I am veering to the side that suggests if your freedom has been denied as punishment for crimes, if that crime is against the state, you are not entitled to vote against the state. However. If the crime is a minor crime, Drunk and Disorderly and you get say two months, I have some leniency against those who would miss a vote merely because of the timing of their sentence. Perhaps the loss of voting rights should be only for those detained for more than 12 months?. If the law states you should not be denied the vote, then perhaps a ballot of people to choose if the law should be changed?.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 4, 2018 9:05:42 GMT
if we want to equate guns to votes, it should also either be illegal for me to sell one of my guns to you, or legal for me to sell one of my votes to you. but the reality is the second amendment does not bar a tax on guns, but it does equate the right to bear arms with militias, and we know when it was written a militia was citizen soldiers under the command of the governor of the state. If you really want to know why we have a second Amendment, it wasn't so our citizens can protect themselves and their homes from burglars. And it wasn't to insure everyone has the right to go hunting. It was so we could defend ourselves from an oppressive government. Our government. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." A state free from who? Russia? England? I don't think so. It was the right to defend from an over zealous federal government. Something to ease the minds of the people of the time that feared that's what they were creating. Looking at what we have today, I think those people's fears were correct. It was also in place to help prevent an aggressive move by other nations... UK at that time may have begrudgingly agreed to independence, but Phrance and Spain were looking on with envious eyes, at a nation just right for taking over, without the protection from UK. Spain had the southern Americas, and a land invasion from there would have been easy, Phrance had a LOT of ships, and, were, we are told, "Considering" a joint exercise with Spain under the overwatch of the Catholic faith.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 4, 2018 9:07:32 GMT
Yes, in Utah there was an accidental discharge in a bathroom, but beyond that, no real problems. I HATE when that happens. Especially when there isn't any toilet paper. Its worse outside the bathroom, trust me, especially if there is a queue.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 10:30:44 GMT
that's how. now, if I mail my ballot in, instead of hand delivering it to a ballot box, I have to pay for the stamp. that is legal, since it is counted the same, either way. Open for discussion, I support the ideal that if you are not by choice contributing towards the system then you are not entitles to have a say in how its run. By mistake, we all make mistake, but of you have chosen on purpose to deny the Gobmint taxation, then you choose to NOT be part of the society?. Caveats, if by reasons of Unemployment or Disability you are receiving benefits, your Poll Tax should be contributed FOR you by the Gobmint, if you have perhaps my mistake missed a payment, there should be some wiggle room on that, but, if by fraud or deliberate action you have refused to pay, your right to vote should be suspended until FULL restitution has been made. Or at least until it has been agreed that you are in the process of making that restitution. There has been discussion on the right of Prisoners. However, I am veering to the side that suggests if your freedom has been denied as punishment for crimes, if that crime is against the state, you are not entitled to vote against the state. However. If the crime is a minor crime, Drunk and Disorderly and you get say two months, I have some leniency against those who would miss a vote merely because of the timing of their sentence. Perhaps the loss of voting rights should be only for those detained for more than 12 months?. If the law states you should not be denied the vote, then perhaps a ballot of people to choose if the law should be changed?. our poll tax was specifically a tax on voting, which was levied in order to make it impossible for the poor to be able to afford to vote. I agree that one ought to be not actively avoiding one's duty as a citizen of the country in order to be eligible to vote.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 10:33:10 GMT
If you really want to know why we have a second Amendment, it wasn't so our citizens can protect themselves and their homes from burglars. And it wasn't to insure everyone has the right to go hunting. It was so we could defend ourselves from an oppressive government. Our government. "A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." A state free from who? Russia? England? I don't think so. It was the right to defend from an over zealous federal government. Something to ease the minds of the people of the time that feared that's what they were creating. Looking at what we have today, I think those people's fears were correct. It was also in place to help prevent an aggressive move by other nations... UK at that time may have begrudgingly agreed to independence, but Phrance and Spain were looking on with envious eyes, at a nation just right for taking over, without the protection from UK. Spain had the southern Americas, and a land invasion from there would have been easy, Phrance had a LOT of ships, and, were, we are told, "Considering" a joint exercise with Spain under the overwatch of the Catholic faith. yes, people like to ignore the fact that when the second amendment was written, it was considered that the US would only have a mercenary standing army DURING times of military need, and that the militia would be well enough trained to make a standing army redundant. addendum: I forget which war it was that we never disbanded our standing army, and of course, we have been continually at war since 2001, at this point.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 10:36:57 GMT
1: a user's licensing program would make it slightly easier for qualified people to acquire guns, and harder for unqualified people to. 2: absolutely national standards. guns may be restricted in illinois, but exporting guns to illinois is legal in all the surrounding states. 3: I think the NRA has lost their way. they've gone from promoting gun safety to promoting gun sales. 4: we can do a lot just by being more attentive to mental health. Nice to see there are at least few things on which we can agree. the thing we disagree on is whether we can solve the problem of the wrong people having guns by making it easier for any people to get guns. it makes no more sense than the people who think the cure for the drug problem is to legalize all drugs.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 4, 2018 17:19:17 GMT
Nice to see there are at least few things on which we can agree. the thing we disagree on is whether we can solve the problem of the wrong people having guns by making it easier for any people to get guns. it makes no more sense than the people who think the cure for the drug problem is to legalize all drugs. I'm not advocating making it easier for anyone to get a gun. That said, I also don't think that making it harder to get a gun is going to solve the problem in and of itself, as the problem we are seeing today really has little to do with guns. The real problem is that society today believes that violence can be used to get what we want, or prove a point, or right some imaginary wrong. Keep in mind that along with an increase in mass shootings, we've also seen an increase in bombings using IEDs and mass killings using automobiles and trucks. We've even had cases of people trying to poison the water supplies of entire cities. Thankfully, they were stopped before the plans could be carried out...this time. Yes, gun violence is a problem, but let's not let the gun be a distraction from what the real cause of the problem is.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2018 23:13:45 GMT
the thing we disagree on is whether we can solve the problem of the wrong people having guns by making it easier for any people to get guns. it makes no more sense than the people who think the cure for the drug problem is to legalize all drugs. I'm not advocating making it easier for anyone to get a gun. That said, I also don't think that making it harder to get a gun is going to solve the problem in and of itself, as the problem we are seeing today really has little to do with guns. The real problem is that society today believes that violence can be used to get what we want, or prove a point, or right some imaginary wrong. Keep in mind that along with an increase in mass shootings, we've also seen an increase in bombings using IEDs and mass killings using automobiles and trucks. We've even had cases of people trying to poison the water supplies of entire cities. Thankfully, they were stopped before the plans could be carried out...this time. Yes, gun violence is a problem, but let's not let the gun be a distraction from what the real cause of the problem is. so you're saying we should go back to selling large quantities of explosives to just anybody, as well, because you don't want explosives to be a distraction from radicalization?
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 5, 2018 5:57:26 GMT
I'm not advocating making it easier for anyone to get a gun. That said, I also don't think that making it harder to get a gun is going to solve the problem in and of itself, as the problem we are seeing today really has little to do with guns. The real problem is that society today believes that violence can be used to get what we want, or prove a point, or right some imaginary wrong. Keep in mind that along with an increase in mass shootings, we've also seen an increase in bombings using IEDs and mass killings using automobiles and trucks. We've even had cases of people trying to poison the water supplies of entire cities. Thankfully, they were stopped before the plans could be carried out...this time. Yes, gun violence is a problem, but let's not let the gun be a distraction from what the real cause of the problem is. so you're saying we should go back to selling large quantities of explosives to just anybody, as well, because you don't want explosives to be a distraction from radicalization? Right. That's exactly what I want. More guns in the hands of murders, more explosives in the hands of terrorists and while were at it, why not equip all rental trucks with laser sights.
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Post by oscardeuce on Mar 5, 2018 7:50:55 GMT
We have many “common sense” laws on the books. Felons are not allowed to purchase or even possess a firearm. If you have a domestic violence conviction you will not pass a NICS check and be denied. Of course the government has to actually report the domestic violence conviction to the FBI. As was the case with the USAF NOT following the law a prohibited person passed a NICS check as the law was not followed. If existing laws don’t work how will piling on more laws help?
Gun free zones are obviously not working as only the bad guys have the guns, and as was seen in Florida the police are not always that gung ho to intervene to save lives.
Chicago. Need I say more?
How do you go about taking a right away? Is it the seriousness of the accusation? How does one handle due process? How can one be assured their property is returned if they are found to not be a prohibited person as many police organizations have a record of damaging or destroying guns before they can be returned.
Then there is the elephant in the room. Why are so many people killing so many people. Whether a hammer or a gun, we need to answer that question. Anything else is a bandaid on a lacerated artery.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 5, 2018 11:08:21 GMT
I am, but, only the right people.
Yes I am advocating that selected sane "safe" people are allowed a gun. And that there be a selection committee that is held accountable for those it allows to have a gun. I am therefore making it harder for those who decide to decide, but, for the member of the public to exercise their right, easier, as long that is that we the other members of the public have nothing to fear from them owing that gun.
To make a direct comparison, owning a car is easy of you follow the rules. So make it exactly the same for owning a gun?.
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2018 15:11:22 GMT
We have many “common sense” laws on the books. Felons are not allowed to purchase or even possess a firearm. If you have a domestic violence conviction you will not pass a NICS check and be denied. Of course the government has to actually report the domestic violence conviction to the FBI. As was the case with the USAF NOT following the law a prohibited person passed a NICS check as the law was not followed. If existing laws don’t work how will piling on more laws help? Gun free zones are obviously not working as only the bad guys have the guns, and as was seen in Florida the police are not always that gung ho to intervene to save lives. Chicago. Need I say more? How do you go about taking a right away? Is it the seriousness of the accusation? How does one handle due process? How can one be assured their property is returned if they are found to not be a prohibited person as many police organizations have a record of damaging or destroying guns before they can be returned. Then there is the elephant in the room. Why are so many people killing so many people. Whether a hammer or a gun, we need to answer that question. Anything else is a bandaid on a lacerated artery. the answer to that is NOT to refuse band-aids; which is what categorically yelling "but right to bear arms" at every suggestion we find a way to keep highly effective firearms out of the hands or other manipulatory appendages of the kind of people who go on killing sprees essentially is. my rescue team all carry basic first aid kits on our gear. if we have a patient in the bottom of a hole who is actively bleeding to death, we're not going to leave him bleeding because we don't have sutures in our kit. we're going to slap something onto the wound and apply pressure to slow down the bleeding until we can get the patient to the medics. I agree that the set of rules we have isn't working. your solution is to not change any rules. my solution is to change rules. einstein is credited with saying the definition of insanity is trying the same thing and expecting different results. if allowing the air force to decide whether or not to tell civilian law enforcement they discharged a guy for not being trustworthy with a gun resulted in the mass murder in Texas, wouldn't the smart decision to be to change the law to say they HAVE to tell civilian law enforcement when they discharge a guy for not being trustworthy with a gun?
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 5, 2018 15:53:38 GMT
My suggestion is to at least try enforcing the rules we have and then, if they don't work, make new rules. It's stupid to just keep piling on more rules when we aren't enforcing the ones we have.
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2018 16:43:25 GMT
My suggestion is to at least try enforcing the rules we have and then, if they don't work, make new rules. It's stupid to just keep piling on more rules when we aren't enforcing the ones we have. we need to patch the holes that make it hard to enforce the rules we have. I've said in the past that we really should have a federal law that requires periodic review of all rules and laws and laws that are confusing, redundant, or obsolete must be revised or repealed as appropriate.
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Post by ironhold on Mar 5, 2018 18:25:13 GMT
My suggestion is to at least try enforcing the rules we have and then, if they don't work, make new rules. It's stupid to just keep piling on more rules when we aren't enforcing the ones we have. Pretty much. If nobody's going to enforce a law, then why is it on the books? Either the laws need to be enforced, or removed.
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