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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 9, 2016 16:17:35 GMT
Here, we don't use aluminium any more in wiring or fuseboxes, not since the 40's anyway (very old houses might have it) The joke my british electrical engineer friends always used to make is that the UK has the safest plugs, because it has the unsafest wiring systems. we allowed aluminum wiring for a short time in the 60s or 70s in mobile homes as a cost saver. my standing advice for those is to get out as soon as possible. it is allowed to be used for circuits 30 amps and above, if the device terminals are rated for it - but since it is required to be larger than copper wire, it is usually more expensive to use than copper, which means only a few die hard fans of it still use it. the only place aluminum is still commonly used as a conductor is for the service entrance wiring - and in cheaply built houses, the main breaker bus. Unfortunately, it wasn't just mobile homes that used it. We still have quite a few permanently built homes from that era around here that use it. It's an absolute disaster. I have a friend that's house is wired with aluminum. There is one particular junction box that carries a heavy load. He's redone the connections in that box a number of times but they only seem to last a year or so before he starts smelling something hot again. My advice was to start ripping out all the aluminum wiring and replace it with copper. He says he can't afford to do that. Hope he can at least afford fire insurance.
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Post by the light works on Feb 9, 2016 16:24:41 GMT
we allowed aluminum wiring for a short time in the 60s or 70s in mobile homes as a cost saver. my standing advice for those is to get out as soon as possible. it is allowed to be used for circuits 30 amps and above, if the device terminals are rated for it - but since it is required to be larger than copper wire, it is usually more expensive to use than copper, which means only a few die hard fans of it still use it. the only place aluminum is still commonly used as a conductor is for the service entrance wiring - and in cheaply built houses, the main breaker bus. Unfortunately, it wasn't just mobile homes that used it. We still have quite a few permanently built homes from that era around here that use it. It's an absolute disaster. I have a friend that's house is wired with aluminum. There is one particular junction box that carries a heavy load. He's redone the connections in that box a number of times but they only seem to last a year or so before he starts smelling something hot again. My advice was to start ripping out all the aluminum wiring and replace it with copper. He says he can't afford to do that. Hope he can at least afford fire insurance. even just threading a new circuit to take some load off that will make a big difference. the biggest issue with aluminum is that it is very thermally active - so even if you have it submerged in anticorrosion paste, it will still back out of the connection.
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Post by Lokifan on Feb 9, 2016 16:53:13 GMT
My inlaws had a house built in the 60s that was all aluminum. They eventually bit the bullet and had it all replaced with copper.
It was the only safe thing to do.
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Post by the light works on Feb 10, 2016 4:15:20 GMT
and I had an emergency call to change out a main breaker at the end of the day today. well, technically not an out-of-the-blue emergency. I was just hoping it would wait until tomorrow. and I took a picture of the panel I've been complaining about. compare it to the ones I have shown above... Attachment Deletedthe problem you can't see is that the manufacturer put in a neutral bus with 19 holes in a 30 tab panel. see if you can find the 3 other things the guy who roughed it in did that ticked me off. (hint: I've mentioned one before) edit: two - I vented about two.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 10, 2016 5:12:39 GMT
and I had an emergency call to change out a main breaker at the end of the day today. well, technically not an out-of-the-blue emergency. I was just hoping it would wait until tomorrow. and I took a picture of the panel I've been complaining about. compare it to the ones I have shown above... View Attachmentthe problem you can't see is that the manufacturer put in a neutral bus with 19 holes in a 30 tab panel. see if you can find the 3 other things the guy who roughed it in did that ticked me off. (hint: I've mentioned one before) edit: two - I vented about two. One of the things I never liked about using Romex is all the uninsulated ground wires stuffed into the breaker panel waiting to shout out to something. In your picture, they appear to be dangerously close to the main feed lug on the left. Even dealing with them in a regular junction box can be a pain. Why are they not covered in green insulation? Just because they are grounds doesn't mean they can't short to a hot lead somewhere. Then throw in all those single pole tandems and I can see why you are complaining about not enough connections on the neutral buss What's the large breaker on the lower right second from the bottom? Is that an arc fault?
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Post by the light works on Feb 10, 2016 5:33:01 GMT
and I had an emergency call to change out a main breaker at the end of the day today. well, technically not an out-of-the-blue emergency. I was just hoping it would wait until tomorrow. and I took a picture of the panel I've been complaining about. compare it to the ones I have shown above... View Attachmentthe problem you can't see is that the manufacturer put in a neutral bus with 19 holes in a 30 tab panel. see if you can find the 3 other things the guy who roughed it in did that ticked me off. (hint: I've mentioned one before) edit: two - I vented about two. One of the things I never liked about using Romex is all the uninsulated ground wires stuffed into the breaker panel waiting to shout out to something. In your picture, they appear to be dangerously close to the main feed lug on the left. Even dealing with them in a regular junction box can be a pain. Why are they not covered in green insulation? Just because they are grounds doesn't mean they can't short to a hot lead somewhere. Then throw in all those single pole tandems and I can see why you are complaining about not enough connections on the neutral buss What's the large breaker on the lower right second from the bottom? Is that an arc fault? yeah, that's Cutler Hammer's old model arc fault. they accidentally gave me a 120 when I needed all 115s, but fortunately I had that one on the truck. I don't mind bare grounds - if you put them in right, they are safely out of harm's way - but avoid wiring the panel hot, or put a guard on the busbars. - this guy did a little bit of a sloppy job but there's still a reasonable air gap between the copper and the lugs. edit: the ten above it are the new model, which don't interfere with where Cutler Hammer puts their ground and neutral buses. there is no good way to route the grounds and neutrals in a Cutler Hammer panel - which is why I don't use them. - but that's not the third major screwup.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 10, 2016 9:10:18 GMT
Here, we don't use aluminium any more in wiring or fuseboxes, not since the 40's anyway (very old houses might have it) The joke my british electrical engineer friends always used to make is that the UK has the safest plugs, because it has the unsafest wiring systems. I can laugh at that because I know some of it to be true.... Some of the wiring I have seen, still in use, is from the day they ripped out the gas lights. I have heard that there was a push to keep old electrical wiring in place as it now has historical meaning.... And how DO you replace wiring in a grade 1 listed historical monument without putting in "New" wiring?... Jokes aside, we have the safest plugs because we have some of the greatest fools in the world playing with them. And when you have seen someone replace a plug with only a kitchen butter knife as a tool, you know who they are.... Yes that did just happen?... whilst he was mumbling red to red black to black blue to (beep) pieces?.. And now he wants me to plug it in the wall for him?... Excuse me I have an urgent appointment elsewhere.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 10, 2016 15:18:33 GMT
One of the things I never liked about using Romex is all the uninsulated ground wires stuffed into the breaker panel waiting to shout out to something. In your picture, they appear to be dangerously close to the main feed lug on the left. Even dealing with them in a regular junction box can be a pain. Why are they not covered in green insulation? Just because they are grounds doesn't mean they can't short to a hot lead somewhere. Then throw in all those single pole tandems and I can see why you are complaining about not enough connections on the neutral buss What's the large breaker on the lower right second from the bottom? Is that an arc fault? yeah, that's Cutler Hammer's old model arc fault. they accidentally gave me a 120 when I needed all 115s, but fortunately I had that one on the truck. I don't mind bare grounds - if you put them in right, they are safely out of harm's way - but avoid wiring the panel hot, or put a guard on the busbars. - this guy did a little bit of a sloppy job but there's still a reasonable air gap between the copper and the lugs. edit: the ten above it are the new model, which don't interfere with where Cutler Hammer puts their ground and neutral buses. there is no good way to route the grounds and neutrals in a Cutler Hammer panel - which is why I don't use them. - but that's not the third major screwup. I still don't like all the bare ground wires. Regulating bodies such as UL, have strict standards on how close live terminals can be to one another. Allowing bare ground wires throws it all up for grabs. It's now up to the installer. Yes, you may properly route and secure them, but I have seen seen many electricians who have not. You take the cover off a panel and you are afraid to touch anything for fear one of the ground wires is going to hit something it shouldn't.
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Post by the light works on Feb 10, 2016 15:45:25 GMT
Here, we don't use aluminium any more in wiring or fuseboxes, not since the 40's anyway (very old houses might have it) The joke my british electrical engineer friends always used to make is that the UK has the safest plugs, because it has the unsafest wiring systems. I can laugh at that because I know some of it to be true.... Some of the wiring I have seen, still in use, is from the day they ripped out the gas lights. I have heard that there was a push to keep old electrical wiring in place as it now has historical meaning.... And how DO you replace wiring in a grade 1 listed historical monument without putting in "New" wiring?... Jokes aside, we have the safest plugs because we have some of the greatest fools in the world playing with them. And when you have seen someone replace a plug with only a kitchen butter knife as a tool, you know who they are.... Yes that did just happen?... whilst he was mumbling red to red black to black blue to (beep) pieces?.. And now he wants me to plug it in the wall for him?... Excuse me I have an urgent appointment elsewhere. our original new wiring scheme was known as knob-and-tube. single conductors were stretched on insulators (knobs) to the points of use. ceramic tubes provided bushings where it went through holes in the framing. the code says it may still be connected where it is in workable shape. our local inspector, as the authority having jurisdiction, some 10 years or more ago said he considers it to not be in workable shape, by definition.
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Post by the light works on Feb 10, 2016 15:46:24 GMT
yeah, that's Cutler Hammer's old model arc fault. they accidentally gave me a 120 when I needed all 115s, but fortunately I had that one on the truck. I don't mind bare grounds - if you put them in right, they are safely out of harm's way - but avoid wiring the panel hot, or put a guard on the busbars. - this guy did a little bit of a sloppy job but there's still a reasonable air gap between the copper and the lugs. edit: the ten above it are the new model, which don't interfere with where Cutler Hammer puts their ground and neutral buses. there is no good way to route the grounds and neutrals in a Cutler Hammer panel - which is why I don't use them. - but that's not the third major screwup. I still don't like all the bare ground wires. Regulating bodies such as UL, have strict standards on how close live terminals can be to one another. Allowing bare ground wires throws it all up for grabs. It's now up to the installer. Yes, you may properly route and secure them, but I have seen seen many electricians who have not. You take the cover off a panel and you are afraid to touch anything for fear one of the ground wires is going to hit something it shouldn't. in that case the inspector should not have signed off on it.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 10, 2016 16:04:18 GMT
I still don't like all the bare ground wires. Regulating bodies such as UL, have strict standards on how close live terminals can be to one another. Allowing bare ground wires throws it all up for grabs. It's now up to the installer. Yes, you may properly route and secure them, but I have seen seen many electricians who have not. You take the cover off a panel and you are afraid to touch anything for fear one of the ground wires is going to hit something it shouldn't. in that case the inspector should not have signed off on it. You mean even after he was given his pay off? How unethical. A friend of mine was renting an old farmhouse up in Wisconsin that had tube and Knob wiring. The main entrance was a porcelain light socket screwed to the wall with a 30 amp fuse in it. The disconnect was an open knife switch next to It.
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Post by the light works on Feb 10, 2016 16:09:10 GMT
in that case the inspector should not have signed off on it. You mean even after he was given his pay off? How unethical. A friend of mine was renting an old farmhouse up in Wisconsin that had tube and Knob wiring. The main entrance was a porcelain light socket screwed to the wall with a 30 amp fuse in it. The disconnect was an open knife switch next to It. wow, fancy. the ones I've seen that old didn't have the knife switch. one of the guys I went though the classes with had a relative in South Africa. he said the bathroom heater was controlled by an open knife switch - which was inside the shower enclosure.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 11, 2016 8:01:02 GMT
You mean even after he was given his pay off? How unethical. A friend of mine was renting an old farmhouse up in Wisconsin that had tube and Knob wiring. The main entrance was a porcelain light socket screwed to the wall with a 30 amp fuse in it. The disconnect was an open knife switch next to It. wow, fancy. the ones I've seen that old didn't have the knife switch. one of the guys I went though the classes with had a relative in South Africa. he said the bathroom heater was controlled by an open knife switch - which was inside the shower enclosure. I have been to places in europe where the on switch for the lights was "just push that wire into the socket".
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Post by the light works on Feb 11, 2016 12:31:48 GMT
and the job continues. I have come to the conclusion that if there are two ways to do something and one way takes 30 seconds more at rough in to save 5 minutes at trim out, the bar-steward didn't do it. I've had to pull apart two boxes and rework them because he put them together wrong.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 12, 2016 7:48:38 GMT
and the job continues. I have come to the conclusion that if there are two ways to do something and one way takes 30 seconds more at rough in to save 5 minutes at trim out, the bar-steward didn't do it. I've had to pull apart two boxes and rework them because he put them together wrong. This is sounding like you got the same geezer that had this house at some point?.. You ever start a job and them wish you never touched it?
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 2:58:29 GMT
and the job continues. I have come to the conclusion that if there are two ways to do something and one way takes 30 seconds more at rough in to save 5 minutes at trim out, the bar-steward didn't do it. I've had to pull apart two boxes and rework them because he put them together wrong. This is sounding like you got the same geezer that had this house at some point?.. You ever start a job and them wish you never touched it? on occasion. today I had to cut an outlet box into one of these. oh, and it is almost underneath a water tap. basically everything has taken about 10% longer than it would have if I had roughed it in.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 13, 2016 5:09:37 GMT
Question for TLW. I am in the process of building a garage at our cabin to store the boat and have a shop in it. I would like to put a subpanel in the garage and feed it from a 50 amp 220 V breaker from the main panel in the cabin. The distance from the cabin to the garage is about 50 feet. Can I get away with using 8–3 (plus ground) UF underground cable or do I need to go with 6–3?
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Post by ponytail61 on Feb 13, 2016 6:36:53 GMT
This is sounding like you got the same geezer that had this house at some point?.. You ever start a job and them wish you never touched it? on occasion. today I had to cut an outlet box into one of these. oh, and it is almost underneath a water tap. basically everything has taken about 10% longer than it would have if I had roughed it in. Why is there a joist hanger there?
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 7:41:27 GMT
Question for TLW. I am in the process of building a garage at our cabin to store the boat and have a shop in it. I would like to put a subpanel in the garage and feed it from a 50 amp 220 V breaker from the main panel in the cabin. The distance from the cabin to the garage is about 50 feet. Can I get away with using 8–3 (plus ground) UF underground cable or do I need to go with 6–3? you have three factors, there. technically, #8 cable is only rated for 40 amps. UF cable is a PITA to work with, and your voltage drop calc starts to get bordeline at full load - really only an issue with motors, but still a potential issue. my inclination would be to run your phases in #6 , nuke in #8 and ground in #1 in PVC. 3/4" will fit, but 1" would give room for expansion if you needed to size it up later. then, assuming it is not a split bus panel in the cabin and 50A is the max you can put in, I'd go ahead and put in a 60A breaker, just because you can.
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 7:42:59 GMT
on occasion. today I had to cut an outlet box into one of these. oh, and it is almost underneath a water tap. basically everything has taken about 10% longer than it would have if I had roughed it in. Why is there a joist hanger there? that's not a joist hanger, that is a holddown anchor. supposed to keep the house from blowing off to Oz in our winter storms.
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