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Post by silverdragon on Dec 21, 2016 10:37:44 GMT
there's smethinng to be said for mechanical safeguards. I agree. But the current design philosophy is no mechanical linkage whatsoever between the car and the driver. Everything has to be controlled over a data line. The steering wheel will be connected to an optical encoder as will the brake pedal. The accelerator hasn't been mechanically connected to the engine for some time now. Much easier to give complete control to a computer that way. UK law states there MUST be a mechanical linkage between Steering Wheel and Steering system, and wheels. There was a system proposed to control vehicle by something like a game-pad, it was thrown out on its first proposal, as there is no place for non mechanical steering systems on UK road vehicles. Electrical wheelchairs, Pedestrian controlled vehicles, limited to 6mph, thats fine, but past that, it must have mechanical steering. I see no system that will change UK law on that. That same law is being used to ensure that all self-driving cars MUST have a manual over-ride that is all mechanical, belt and braces, a purely mechanical system that works when you hit the "Off" switch on the electronics. Accelerator, Clutch, and Brakes, can be as much electronic assist as you like, but MUST have a fail-safe of mechanical linkage to allow emergency dis-engage of electronic nanny to brake to a stop. That includes power-assisted brakes... If the assist fails, there must be enough pure mechanical ability for a reasonably able drive to stop the vehicle.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 13:01:46 GMT
putting a US automatic transmission in Drive with the engine stopped is next to useless, because it takes hydraulic pressure from the engine running to engage the transmission clutches. Park is the only safe parking gear, because that is supposed to engage, and on older transmissions, it does that manually, a parking pawl that sets with a clank on a gear to most definitely keep the car in place. the park brake - which, here, is only applied if you intend the car to not go anywhere for a while - it sounded like you apply it whenever you roll up to a stop sign - is usually not trusted to be effective, alone. always belt and braces with those, except the spring brake on trucks. (our spring brake is like your broms brake, except it lets your wheel brakes lock up if you let out the air from it.) even then, we are supposed to chock the tires, (some say both uphill and down) when we stop the truck.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2016 13:44:49 GMT
I don't think it matters as much if a data bit sets a parking break or a mechanical cable. What matters is how the driver activates that system. Not long ago, you could get into almost any car on the road and within a few seconds, you could operate it. You didn't have to dig out the owners manual when it started to rain to figure out how to turn on the wipers. You knew where the ignition switch was and how to start the engine. That's not the case anymore, and that's why Chrysler is having the problems they are having. It's not that their system will not hold the car steady when in park. It's that many drivers don't understand how to put the car in park because Chrysler changed the way the driver interface operates.
My son has a newer model Toyota. Every time I get behind the wheel, I have to ask him to again explain to me how to operate the cruise control. It just isn't intuitive. Carmakers are very interested in setting their vehicles apart from the competition. That's fine, but just don't mess with the basic driver interface.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 14:03:27 GMT
I don't think it matters as much if a data bit sets a parking break or a mechanical cable. What matters is how the driver activates that system. Not long ago, you could get into almost any car on the road and within a few seconds, you could operate it. You didn't have to dig out the owners manual when it started to rain to figure out how to turn on the wipers. You knew where the ignition switch was and how to start the engine. That's not the case anymore, and that's why Chrysler is having the problems they are having. It's not that their system will not hold the car steady when in park. It's that many drivers don't understand how to put the car in park because Chrysler changed the way the driver interface operates. My son has a newer model Toyota. Every time I get behind the wheel, I have to ask him to again explain to me how to operate the cruise control. It just isn't intuitive. Carmakers are very interested in setting their vehicles apart from the competition. That's fine, but just don't mess with the basic driver interface. the transmissions on our older trucks still have a shift lever, but Truck automatics don't have a Park option. whenever we train new drivers, I tend to find the lever in the reverse position, because they are used to Park being above Reverse. the push button transmissions don't have that issue, because they are enough different that old habits don't spill over. but the issue is, I think, similar to the story a helicopter pilot told me. in the helicopter he was flying, the throttles were a twist knob at the back of the console (out of his easy line of sight) that had a spring return. they were activated by turning the knob until it clicked into place. (yes, the throttle options were "idle" and "flight") on one flight, he didn't get one of the throttles engaged into the flight position, and due to the tachometer readout being set up so that the bars were close enough together to make it hard to notice only one engine at flight throttle, he attempted to take off on only one engine. in old helicopter airframes, the main throttle controls are at the top of the windscreen, and there is a clear difference between flight, idle, and off. (the levers are still there, but they are now just system on and off, and the actual throttle control is elsewhere)
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2016 14:18:06 GMT
On all of the helicopters I ever flew in, the throttle was a twist grip on the end of the collective pitch lever. But all of those copters only had one engine. I guess on a two engine copter, you need some means of disengaging one engine's throttle should something go wrong.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 15:00:22 GMT
On all of the helicopters I ever flew in, the throttle was a twist grip on the end of the collective pitch lever. But all of those copters only had one engine. I guess on a two engine copter, you need some means of disengaging one engine's throttle should something go wrong. I think turbine helicopters don't have the throttle on the collective. either that or it is only a fine control used after you set the main throttle to flight position.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2016 15:15:51 GMT
One model of helicopter I often flu in was turbine and the other two were piston powered. All of them had the throttle on the collective. But again, they only had one engine. I'm not sure how you would fly a helicopter without having direct access to the throttle on one of the flight control sticks. I also don't understand how you could have a two position throttle. Maybe the switches are for engaging which engine or engines are assigned to the master throttle control.
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 21, 2016 16:38:27 GMT
my father-in-law's wife just got a "newish" mercedes..I hate it for one reason alone.
It has one stalk on the left, none on the right of the wheel, this one stalk does indicators, lights, wipers front and back.....and it all works by twisting different "dials" on the one stalk....
The frack was wrong with the old system of having one stalk for wipers and one for lights?
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Post by Lokifan on Dec 21, 2016 17:12:49 GMT
The only way to unlock the trunk of my wife's car is via the key remote.
I spent way too much time searching both the dashboard and the driver's manual for a clue to a hidden button or switch. They simply didn't include one in the design.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 17:32:41 GMT
One model of helicopter I often flu in was turbine and the other two were piston powered. All of them had the throttle on the collective. But again, they only had one engine. I'm not sure how you would fly a helicopter without having direct access to the throttle on one of the flight control sticks. I also don't understand how you could have a two position throttle. Maybe the switches are for engaging which engine or engines are assigned to the master throttle control. no, the throttles on the console switched the engines between idle and flight throttle. as I recall, the pilot said the windscreen throttles did essentially the same thing before they got converted to master system on-off switches. (he was giving us a briefing on crash response while they waited for the ambulance to arrive with their passenger) he said that model of bird ran its own throttle control; which is why I am wondering if the master throttles take it up to flight throttle, and the hand control fine tunes the throttle from there. - which I guess could be described as assigning the engines to the control on the collective.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 17:36:05 GMT
my father-in-law's wife just got a "newish" mercedes..I hate it for one reason alone. It has one stalk on the left, none on the right of the wheel, this one stalk does indicators, lights, wipers front and back.....and it all works by twisting different "dials" on the one stalk.... The frack was wrong with the old system of having one stalk for wipers and one for lights? my Jeep only has one stalk. it controls the indicators. everything else is controlled by its own knobs on the dashboard. I have a stomp switch on the floor to toggle the high beams.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 21, 2016 19:45:50 GMT
my father-in-law's wife just got a "newish" mercedes..I hate it for one reason alone. It has one stalk on the left, none on the right of the wheel, this one stalk does indicators, lights, wipers front and back.....and it all works by twisting different "dials" on the one stalk.... The frack was wrong with the old system of having one stalk for wipers and one for lights? And when that stick falls off, you're really screwed. That said, the turn signal stick on my wife's Excursion controls the turn signals, hi-beams, front and back wipers, and washers. The lights, other than the high beams, are on the dash.
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Post by the light works on Dec 21, 2016 20:10:44 GMT
my father-in-law's wife just got a "newish" mercedes..I hate it for one reason alone. It has one stalk on the left, none on the right of the wheel, this one stalk does indicators, lights, wipers front and back.....and it all works by twisting different "dials" on the one stalk.... The frack was wrong with the old system of having one stalk for wipers and one for lights? And when that stick falls off, you're really screwed. That said, the turn signal stick on my wife's Excursion controls the turn signals, hi-beams, front and back wipers, and washers. The lights, other than the high beams, are on the dash. on the Chevies, it does high beam, cruise control, and wipers, as well as the turn signal.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 22, 2016 10:07:49 GMT
the park brake - which, here, is only applied if you intend the car to not go anywhere for a while - it sounded like you apply it whenever you roll up to a stop sign - is usually not trusted to be effective, alone. Are you telling me the thing the call "Emergency brake", or "Handbrake", or "Park brake" is generally seen as not effective to the tune of useless?.. Ask those drivers to try a "Handbrake turn". It is well known that unless your using 500-600-700 Hp to overcome that brake, if you pull the handbrake, your back end WILL overtake your front. If it doesnt, on a new car, take it back, and ask for a better one. Not just the brake, a whole better car.... or truck, or whatever you got. There used to be a "worry" that the ratchet on the handbrake could shake loose... they have made better ratchets since that time. If your vehicle does roll with the handbrake on tight, your brakes need servicing or replacing, or, tighten the bloody wire up a bit?.. its supposed to be purely mechanical on a pre-stretched cable to overcome the possibilities of a fail in the braking system that may use pneumatics etc. I don't think it matters as much if a data bit sets a parking break or a mechanical cable. What matters is how the driver activates that system. Not long ago, you could get into almost any car on the road and within a few seconds, you could operate it. You didn't have to dig out the owners manual when it started to rain to figure out how to turn on the wipers. You knew where the ignition switch was and how to start the engine. That's not the case anymore, and that's why Chrysler is having the problems they are having. It's not that their system will not hold the car steady when in park. It's that many drivers don't understand how to put the car in park because Chrysler changed the way the driver interface operates. Drag them out of the car and shred their licence. Yeah, I went there.... PART of the UK driving licence, part of the teat, part of the book of the highway code, states, pure and simple, every time you get into a "new" vehicle spend a little time familiarising yourself with the layout of the controls. Ok, so. lets go there some more. Things I check on changing vehicles, I wash the screen to get the dust off, which proves there is washer fluid in the tank, and makes me use the wash-wipe feature, I engage the four-way flasher emergency flashers hazard lights adjust for mileage in all these terms, engage low beam, high beam, sidelights, and do a walk-around to check for missing bulbs, or use reflections on walls or windows to check those as well, and brakes. I ALWAYS adjust the seat, because its usually been driven by some four-foot dwarf from the mines of Moria, then check which side of the gearbox they hid Reverse this time, pop the hood, check fluid levels, and I have found one that had less oil in it than a Swiss watch once or twice here, fill the washer fluid bottle, because I think I am the only on in UK to do that at the moment, and then get on with finding all the other missing links and press every button to find out what it does. That includes a short peep on the horn. We ARE taught that on the HGV courses, I think, even now, maybe half a century after I started with the HGV stuff, there are things you "Must do", like the tug test when you back under a trailer to prove it is attached before you raise the legs, not doing that is "rookie sh@t" stupidity. You should also cycle through the gears so you know where each one is. And how many you got. I aint the first or last to go from low-range four to high range 1 and find there is another two in low range I should have gone through before I done that?.. I aint the last to hear the excuse "It makes a lot of noise on motorways" to find out they aint used 5th gear yet on their car. My point is that these are things your SUPPOSED to do... my father-in-law's wife just got a "newish" mercedes..I hate it for one reason alone. I bet its the same reason I hate them?.. Thats one of them, the other is "Fly by wire" The fly-by-wire system in them prevents you using anything more than about 20% throttle with the clutch engaged to prevent you doing harm to the engine... Which is fine unless your trying to get a fully loaded wagon to go up a hill. It just doesnt work that way. The only way to unlock the trunk of my wife's car is via the key remote. I spent way too much time searching both the dashboard and the driver's manual for a clue to a hidden button or switch. They simply didn't include one in the design. Beware push-button boot closing systems. The lady down the road had one of them, and broke it twice by manually trying to close the hatch. It was returned with "Send me a better one" note because as she said, unless it can sense someone doesnt know they are supposed to push a button to close the hatch, its a cash-cow system to charge £120 a time to replace a system designed to catch out those who are used to manual hatchbacks?.. Rather sensible people we have on this street dont ya think?.. they can see the sensibility of technology and the stupidity of it working against you. I believe that system has been replaced by a door close system operated by a pull-tab inside the vehicle that CRAPs its self off completely if someone closes it from manual yank on the outside. [Edit, typo on "shuts" in above line...]
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 22, 2016 10:13:47 GMT
On Flight control systems, control switches that are off-idle-flight, the separate throttle controls the speed of the motor, but when set to idle, it isolates that from accidental operation, to prevent accidental take-off whilst fumbling with seatbelts and seat adjustments or trying to find your flight manual?.. You set it to idle, start the engine, then when you are SURE you want to go, set it to flight?... Only then will the throttles control the speed of the engine.
Thats as far as I can remember, I niver did try flying a whirly-bird-egg-beater, too complicated for me.
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Post by the light works on Dec 22, 2016 15:05:40 GMT
the park brake - which, here, is only applied if you intend the car to not go anywhere for a while - it sounded like you apply it whenever you roll up to a stop sign - is usually not trusted to be effective, alone. Are you telling me the thing the call "Emergency brake", or "Handbrake", or "Park brake" is generally seen as not effective to the tune of useless?.. Ask those drivers to try a "Handbrake turn". It is well known that unless your using 500-600-700 Hp to overcome that brake, if you pull the handbrake, your back end WILL overtake your front. If it doesnt, on a new car, take it back, and ask for a better one. Not just the brake, a whole better car.... or truck, or whatever you got. There used to be a "worry" that the ratchet on the handbrake could shake loose... they have made better ratchets since that time. If your vehicle does roll with the handbrake on tight, your brakes need servicing or replacing, or, tighten the bloody wire up a bit?.. its supposed to be purely mechanical on a pre-stretched cable to overcome the possibilities of a fail in the braking system that may use pneumatics etc. on many cars, it is not effective to the point of being useless, yes. frequently, that is being out of adjustment, or having things cooked from too much driving with the park brake on. but at heart, the park brake delivers 25%-50% of the braking force supplied by the service brakes, and on some older cars, it is closer to 12.5% on an upgrade. on some of our medium duty trucks, the only intended purpose of the park brake is to prevent it wandering off across the assembly shop floor while they put the truck body on it. with our two new quick attacks, we did force the issue - demanded the manufacturer send a representative out and make the park brake work. but bottom line is we run vehicles with power assisted service brakes, and then supply a cable pull brake with a short lever as the park brake - its only real function is to back up the transmission for holding the vehicle in place while parked up. now heavy trucks - those with air brakes, the park brake is designed to hold the truck in place all by itself, because they are expected to need to sit and idle in place. (and as I may or may not have said, the design of our air brake system is that if the system is working, it will let you go)
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 22, 2016 15:25:33 GMT
if you can drive for anything more than 10 meters with a park brake on, you deserve to lose your license as you obviously have no clue what you are doing...and don't understand how cars should react.
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Post by the light works on Dec 22, 2016 15:35:00 GMT
if you can drive for anything more than 10 meters with a park brake on, you deserve to lose your license as you obviously have no clue what you are doing...and don't understand how cars should react. there are multiple opportunities for people to drive with a park brake on, including those people who only use it enough to turn the indicator in the dashboard on to let them know they are parked. also, on the subject of park brakes, the cable pull linkage is usually exposed, so it is commonly advised here that you do not apply it if you are driving in snowy conditions; as it is possible to clog the linkage with wet snow, which freezes in place when the car cools. it is a dreadful inconvenience to have to chip the ice off your park brake so you can move.
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 22, 2016 15:38:45 GMT
living in a country that has it's fair share of snow and ice, I never had that happen to me, or even know anyone who did....
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 22, 2016 16:36:21 GMT
if you can drive for anything more than 10 meters with a park brake on, you deserve to lose your license as you obviously have no clue what you are doing...and don't understand how cars should react. there are multiple opportunities for people to drive with a park brake on, including those people who only use it enough to turn the indicator in the dashboard on to let them know they are parked. also, on the subject of park brakes, the cable pull linkage is usually exposed, so it is commonly advised here that you do not apply it if you are driving in snowy conditions; as it is possible to clog the linkage with wet snow, which freezes in place when the car cools. it is a dreadful inconvenience to have to chip the ice off your park brake so you can move. I've had that problem. I don't know if ice was the issue or that it just get's sluggish in cold weather. I seldom use it for it's intended purpose anyway.
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