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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 30, 2016 21:09:29 GMT
Depends. Some car manufacturers kept using their old 6V ignition coils for a better spark while starting. They had added a resistor in series and a relay to bypass it. By using 24V, you would kill the coils almost instantly. In fact they often burned out when the relay was broken due to fused contacts or failure of operation. And the relay had often failed burning the coils out after a while of driving. Some had the relay linked to the generator. The generator won't start producing electricity until the engine reaches at least idling RPM for a while. So when the generator fails and you don't stop the car, the coils can burn out before the battery is down. Cars using alternators usually had an electronically timed relay. In this case the capacitor delaying the relay often had failed so the ignition was permanently in 12V mode so the car was very hard to start then. And by the way, it's amazing how much resistance the wiring of classic cars can gain. Flexible wiring is sensitive to vibrations and corrosion. The strands inside the cable build up a resistance between each other and break from movements (vibrations) so the current has to switch between the strands much more often. It's amazing how well and bright the lights of an old 6V car work after replacing all the wiring! Well, we never did any damage using the 24 volt trick but maybe we were just lucky. I'd never try it with a newer car. I had an old 6 volt VW micro bus that I often jump started from a 12 volt battery. Had little choice as it was hard to find a 6 volt car to jump from. A more common problem with the 6 volt coil and series resistor on a 12 volt system is that the resistor would open. When that would happen, the engine would start and keep running as long as you kept the key in the start position. As soon as you would release the key to the run position, the engine would die. That was always a sure sign that the resistor was bad. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 31, 2016 2:04:39 GMT
a certain generation of GM vehicles used a high energy ignition system that made a hotter spark for starting the engine.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 31, 2016 3:38:49 GMT
a certain generation of GM vehicles used a high energy ignition system that made a hotter spark for starting the engine. And the early generation ones were notorious for sudden death syndrome. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 31, 2016 3:57:40 GMT
a certain generation of GM vehicles used a high energy ignition system that made a hotter spark for starting the engine. And the early generation ones were notorious for sudden death syndrome. my dad's went 15 years and over 200,000 miles without ever having the distributor cap off. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 31, 2016 4:40:37 GMT
And the early generation ones were notorious for sudden death syndrome. my dad's went 15 years and over 200,000 miles without ever having the distributor cap off. My dad had a Pontiac that I think was the first year GM used it. He would never go anywhere without a spare "module" in the glovebox. It seemed to fail about every 15K miles but there was really no predicting when. A year later, I got a Chevy wagon from the company I worked for. Same problem. The module was a small crescent shaped thing that went in the distributor where the points use to be. It was easy enough to replace if you had one. The system I'm talking about had the coil integrated into the top of the distributor cap. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 31, 2016 7:16:58 GMT
my dad's went 15 years and over 200,000 miles without ever having the distributor cap off. My dad had a Pontiac that I think was the first year GM used it. He would never go anywhere without a spare "module" in the glovebox. It seemed to fail about every 15K miles but there was really no predicting when. A year later, I got a Chevy wagon from the company I worked for. Same problem. The module was a small crescent shaped thing that went in the distributor where the points use to be. It was easy enough to replace if you had one. The system I'm talking about had the coil integrated into the top of the distributor cap. yep, that's the one. people I talked to said it should have been impossible for it to go that long. my van arced inside the cap and blew its brains out at about 270,000. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 31, 2016 12:20:36 GMT
[ohcr@p...] This is not what we meant. www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8941211/Learner-drivers-to-be-allowed-on-motorways.htmlRead the article, I do not disagree with it all in one fell swoop, I agree there is a definite need for motorway education, however... We that be the people that asked that Learner Drivers MUST have motorway experience with a trained instructor, asked that it be a "Pass plus" requirement, in that the driver passes their test that takes the extra course AFTER passing the basic test... The Gobmint's sort of announcement states more or less "At any time" during the leaning process.... I am astounded how common sense has been allowed to leave the building on this score. Yes there should be a requirement for new drivers to do Motorway training before they do it on their own, but, A Basic Level of Competence should be required, like, I dunno, maybe passing your practical driving test first?.. |
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 31, 2016 12:32:14 GMT
In finland, once you are in the latter part of drivers education, usually around 15-20 lessons, you have to do the slippery course test, as the courses are usually outside of town a good bit away, they tend to have a "highway driving" lesson on the way to and from the course.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 31, 2016 12:47:18 GMT
In finland, once you are in the latter part of drivers education, usually around 15-20 lessons, you have to do the slippery course test, as the courses are usually outside of town a good bit away, they tend to have a "highway driving" lesson on the way to and from the course. I am worried that my suggestions of compulsory skid-pan training may be taken in a similar way to the motorways.. you need to know how to control a car before you learn how to loose control to be able to regain control?.. so yeah, you need a few hours first. But we do need skid-pan training in uk... The last week I watched a car get a minor prang. Nothing out of the ordinary. A Bit of work with a panel hammer and may be a light pain job would have fixed it.... Until the driver completely failed to stop the vehicle and allowed it to roll further into another car at enough force to write off the whole front end. At some point after the initial impact, that driver should have hit the brakes?.. no?... The driver was "Fully functioning" enough to exit the car when it stopped and start having a panic about how they were to get home now. I would have stopped, but, "...'s nofing to do wiv me", I didnt want to get into an argument with either of the two twonka's arguing over who was first in the queue. However it has highlighted the need for "Expect the Unexpected" training in Drivers education, whet NOT to do in an incident, and press that bloody brake pedal for all your life, "Trust in ABS", until you stop... |
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 31, 2016 17:12:17 GMT
even with one of the best driving educations in the world, there is still enough idiots out there to have a finnish version of the worst driver franchise...and there were some real monkeys there....
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 1, 2017 19:38:35 GMT
with the best intentions in the world, and the best driving school in the world, there will always be dunces who just cant get the idea of how important driving is.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 2, 2017 21:21:45 GMT
Had our first bit of snow today as I was heading up the motorway from Germany. Surprisingly enough, most people actually drove to suit the conditions. No glaringly obvious "OH-NO-WHAT-DO-I-DO?!" panicky idiots stomping on the brakes to go from 80 mph to 30 mph in 4 seconds as soon as the first splash of white stuff hit their windscreens and not too many overconfident twerps going way too fast either. Three or four truck drivers were going a little faster than I would have liked them to and then there was the obligatory token idiot in his beamer, but other than that, most folks just eased up off the gas pedal and went along at about 45-50 when it was coming down really bad and then sped back up to around 65-70 when they got to a place where it was mostly just wet. People were even keeping a reasonable distance to the vehicles in front of them. I almost asked Girlfriend to get out the GPS to check if we'd made a wrong turn somewhere and were still in Germany  |
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Post by c64 on Jan 4, 2017 20:17:04 GMT
my dad's went 15 years and over 200,000 miles without ever having the distributor cap off. My dad had a Pontiac that I think was the first year GM used it. He would never go anywhere without a spare "module" in the glovebox. It seemed to fail about every 15K miles but there was really no predicting when. A year later, I got a Chevy wagon from the company I worked for. Same problem. The module was a small crescent shaped thing that went in the distributor where the points use to be. It was easy enough to replace if you had one. The system I'm talking about had the coil integrated into the top of the distributor cap. There are many different "capacitor" ignition systems. The early High-voltage-high-capacity systems used a Thyratron which used to be very reliable until the moment your cars bumps hard over something, then the glass breaks. The first (solid state) Thyristor based ones all tended to burn out especially during hot days but now you can use a modern Thyristor to fix them. Fun fact: There were a lot of DIY schematics available to retrofit your car with a transistor ignition back in the 70s. They prevent wear on the contacts but this had caused a different problem. To maintain the timing, there was a plastic glider on the contacts which also wears out keeping the gap of the contacts roughly the same size. So with the DIY transistor circuits you had to replace the contacts about as often as without… |
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 4, 2017 20:40:57 GMT
My dad had a Pontiac that I think was the first year GM used it. He would never go anywhere without a spare "module" in the glovebox. It seemed to fail about every 15K miles but there was really no predicting when. A year later, I got a Chevy wagon from the company I worked for. Same problem. The module was a small crescent shaped thing that went in the distributor where the points use to be. It was easy enough to replace if you had one. The system I'm talking about had the coil integrated into the top of the distributor cap. There are many different "capacitor" ignition systems. The early High-voltage-high-capacity systems used a Thyratron which used to be very reliable until the moment your cars bumps hard over something, then the glass breaks. The first (solid state) Thyristor based ones all tended to burn out especially during hot days but now you can use a modern Thyristor to fix them. Fun fact: There were a lot of DIY schematics available to retrofit your car with a transistor ignition back in the 70s. They prevent wear on the contacts but this had caused a different problem. To maintain the timing, there was a plastic glider on the contacts which also wears out keeping the gap of the contacts roughly the same size. So with the DIY transistor circuits you had to replace the contacts about as often as without… This system I'm talking about was not capacitive discharge. There was a small circular coil at the very bottom of the distributor that lined up with a ring that rotated and had gear type teeth on it. That replaced the mechanical contact points. Then just above that sat "the module". I took one of these modules apart and it looked like it had three small transistors wired in some type of Schmidt trigger/darlington configuration that was driving a large power transistor. It was the power transistor that always seemed to fail. The thing was potted so it was almost impossible to replace anything in it. |
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Post by c64 on Jan 6, 2017 20:01:48 GMT
There are many different "capacitor" ignition systems. The early High-voltage-high-capacity systems used a Thyratron which used to be very reliable until the moment your cars bumps hard over something, then the glass breaks. The first (solid state) Thyristor based ones all tended to burn out especially during hot days but now you can use a modern Thyristor to fix them. Fun fact: There were a lot of DIY schematics available to retrofit your car with a transistor ignition back in the 70s. They prevent wear on the contacts but this had caused a different problem. To maintain the timing, there was a plastic glider on the contacts which also wears out keeping the gap of the contacts roughly the same size. So with the DIY transistor circuits you had to replace the contacts about as often as without… This system I'm talking about was not capacitive discharge. There was a small circular coil at the very bottom of the distributor that lined up with a ring that rotated and had gear type teeth on it. That replaced the mechanical contact points. Then just above that sat "the module". I took one of these modules apart and it looked like it had three small transistors wired in some type of Schmidt trigger/darlington configuration that was driving a large power transistor. It was the power transistor that always seemed to fail. The thing was potted so it was almost impossible to replace anything in it. All modern cars use magnetic HAL sensors for the ignition. The classic ones still had a distributor and the HAL system was located where the contacts used to be. Nowadays there is a HAL sensor next to the flywheel. The flywheel has teeth on its outside for the starter motor. A missing tooth causes a disturbance whenever this spot passes the sensor. A computer calculates the RPM from the time between the impulses and then can calculate the angle of the crankshaft for any given time. The computer controls the injection and the ignition. The classic HAL systems don't need a real computer, they just replace the contacts and a classic mechanical distributor takes care of where the spark needs to go. The HAL sensor just "says when". The first generation HAL sensors were highly unreliable but it didn't take long to figure out that the intense temperature changes of the engine causes the problems. Now they use two HAL sensors and a simple comparator circuit. Now it doesn't matter how far ahead the sensor can see the event. Now the system triggers when both see the same magnetic strength. This means the event can't be anywhere but exactly right between the pair of HAL sensors. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 7, 2017 11:37:25 GMT
My First "Injection" bike had a "lump" on the flywheel, with a balance on the other side, this lump was magnetic, it passes a sensor, and the bike knows that the flywheel is in "that" position to fire the cylinder.
As far as firing mechanisms work, No moving parts on that system at all, nothing to wear out.
That was over 30 yrs ago...
They didnt improve the system, because, well, how can you improve on that?..
The modern equivalent of that bike uses the very same system to this day.
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2017 15:15:51 GMT
My First "Injection" bike had a "lump" on the flywheel, with a balance on the other side, this lump was magnetic, it passes a sensor, and the bike knows that the flywheel is in "that" position to fire the cylinder. As far as firing mechanisms work, No moving parts on that system at all, nothing to wear out. That was over 30 yrs ago... They didnt improve the system, because, well, how can you improve on that?.. The modern equivalent of that bike uses the very same system to this day. my lawnmower has a magnet on the flywheel and an open coil that it passes. when the magnet passes the coil, it charges the capacitor, and then the capacitor discharges through the spark plug. standard issue on all engines too small to have any sort of onboard electrical system, and a few that have their electrical system independent of their ignition system. the capacitor eventually breaks down, electrically, if you want to count that as wear. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 7, 2017 15:27:32 GMT
My First "Injection" bike had a "lump" on the flywheel, with a balance on the other side, this lump was magnetic, it passes a sensor, and the bike knows that the flywheel is in "that" position to fire the cylinder. As far as firing mechanisms work, No moving parts on that system at all, nothing to wear out. That was over 30 yrs ago... They didnt improve the system, because, well, how can you improve on that?.. The modern equivalent of that bike uses the very same system to this day. The system was called a magneto and was one of the first ignition systems used on internal combustion engines. Most of them still used contact points. The ones used on lawnmowers today do not have the points. |
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Post by c64 on Jan 7, 2017 17:27:53 GMT
My First "Injection" bike had a "lump" on the flywheel, with a balance on the other side, this lump was magnetic, it passes a sensor, and the bike knows that the flywheel is in "that" position to fire the cylinder. As far as firing mechanisms work, No moving parts on that system at all, nothing to wear out. That was over 30 yrs ago... They didnt improve the system, because, well, how can you improve on that?.. The modern equivalent of that bike uses the very same system to this day. The system was called a magneto and was one of the first ignition systems used on internal combustion engines. Most of them still used contact points. The ones used on lawnmowers today do not have the points. Actually, the magneto is not the first method. The very first gas engines used glow rods - just as small gasoline powered RC cars and airplanes still use today. It didn't take that long until a magnetic ignition was invented but this was low voltage (350..500V) and never worked well. It was only used in early stationary gas engines. Next came the buzzer-ignition. A dynamo powers an ignition coil. The "buzzer" is a "chattering relay" clicking on and off rapidly. This relay cuts its own power when on so it keeps switching on and off very rapidly. The output of the ignition coil is then controlled by a distributor. The Ford Model T had used this system. The dynamo powered the lights and the ignition, a battery was eventually available as option and used for the optional electric starter. What is known as "the Magneto" came up shortly after the "buzzer". It was first used for motorcycles only since it was not as good as the buzzer but cheaper and lighter. This magnetic ignition is capable to generate good sparks and technically it is related to the buzzer. The Magneto was standard for motorcycles until the 196os. Then it became exotic and is only still used for small motor tools, small inexpensive motorbikes and as a fail-safe backup (e.g. small propeller airplanes). |
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Post by Lokifan on Jan 12, 2017 18:02:41 GMT
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