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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 6, 2016 15:37:50 GMT
Fish gotta swim, Birds, on the other hand gotta fly.... I say that because I dont see many 4X4 Birds, and they use their "Front limbs" to cover great distance?.. Push or Pull, I have great faith that having the front wheels drive is as good and if not in some cases better on many vehicles,If rear wheel drive was "All that and a bag of chips", how come they added front wheel drive to make a 4X4?... front wheel drive being so bad and all that?.. In snow and ice condition, Front wheel drive "pulling" makes it easier to keep all four wheels in line. Rear wheel drive just insists the back wheels overtake the front as soon as you add a little power. Front wheel drive also has smaller turning circle ability... Which is why european cars are so much better at them things we call corners than the Yanks?...   adding the front wheels adds traction. adding the front wheels and then deleting the rear wheels just puts all the components on the same end. and when you are trying to go uphill, the weight shifts from the drive wheels to the undriven wheels. or to reply to your challenge, why, if front drive is so superior, did I have to turn the car around and go up the hill backwards when there was snow on the hill? and if you believe front drive has a smaller turning radius, I will put my four wheel drive work truck up against your rear drive work truck, and we'll see which has the smaller turning radius. I can make a U-turn in a little bit over four lanes. When I switch my Jeep from rear wheel drive to 4 wheel drive it doesn't change the turning radius at all. I never cared for front wheel drive. If I have to have a two wheel drive vehicle, I would rather it be rear drive. We just get too much snow for either. I will never own a vehicle that isn't either selectable 2/4 Wheel drive or full time all wheel drive. Maybe if I move to someplace where there is no snow but I just don't see that happening. And it's not just traction moving forward, it's controlability. A four wheel drive vehicle is just so much more controllable on slippery roads. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 6, 2016 17:15:52 GMT
adding the front wheels adds traction. adding the front wheels and then deleting the rear wheels just puts all the components on the same end. and when you are trying to go uphill, the weight shifts from the drive wheels to the undriven wheels. or to reply to your challenge, why, if front drive is so superior, did I have to turn the car around and go up the hill backwards when there was snow on the hill? and if you believe front drive has a smaller turning radius, I will put my four wheel drive work truck up against your rear drive work truck, and we'll see which has the smaller turning radius. I can make a U-turn in a little bit over four lanes. When I switch my Jeep from rear wheel drive to 4 wheel drive it doesn't change the turning radius at all. I never cared for front wheel drive. If I have to have a two wheel drive vehicle, I would rather it be rear drive. We just get too much snow for either. I will never own a vehicle that isn't either selectable 2/4 Wheel drive or full time all wheel drive. Maybe if I move to someplace where there is no snow but I just don't see that happening. And it's not just traction moving forward, it's controlability. A four wheel drive vehicle is just so much more controllable on slippery roads. I had a day that I was losing one of the U-joints in the driveline on my Jeep. the next day happened to have a power outage from a storm, so I took advantage of the day off to change the U-joint. of course, Mr Murphy came out to play and right after I got the drive line dropped out, the company got an emergency call to replace a meter that had been knocked off the house. if you ever want to experience an controlability issues, try driving a traditional four wheel drive with only the front wheels engaged. but on your jeep, shifting it from 4 to 2 doesn't change the front drive geometry, so it doesn't significantly change the turning radius. if you can find a 2 wheel drive version of my truck, you'll notice it has a significantly tighter turning radius. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 6, 2016 17:17:03 GMT
the oregon department of transportation dropped the ball - they normally pretreat the roads with de-icer when it is threatening to freeze. they missed it last night.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 6, 2016 19:27:36 GMT
the oregon department of transportation dropped the ball - they normally pretreat the roads with de-icer when it is threatening to freeze. they missed it last night. Illinois DOT only treats the roads two days after they freeze up. They want to make sure it's for real. And when they do treat them, they use salt. Helps the car dealers sell new cars. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 7, 2016 1:23:54 GMT
the oregon department of transportation dropped the ball - they normally pretreat the roads with de-icer when it is threatening to freeze. they missed it last night. Illinois DOT only treats the roads two days after they freeze up. They want to make sure it's for real. And when they do treat them, they use salt. Helps the car dealers sell new cars. here, it is a mixture of alcohol and ammonia. when they started using it, they said it is chemically similar to winos' urine. it is allegedly not harmful to plants, and other than putting a tacky coating on cars, it doesn't seem to cause corrosion. |
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 7, 2016 4:40:40 GMT
here, only the mayor roads get treated if it treatens to freeze/melt cycle a lot, nothing else.
Most of us have frontwheel drive, but high quality studded tires for grip and safety, only people who live in area's that might not get plowed a lot own 4x4's for snow or of course muddy seasons.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 7, 2016 10:45:09 GMT
Work truck Volvo FH16 can turn the whole damn truck around in 4 lanes?... thats on a 60ft trailer on the back as well. "Bobtail" or Solo, it can do that same thing on a two lane road [as long as it isnt a very narrow one] in one turn. It has a turning radius of a smaller family car. Turning circle between kerbs 13 494 millimetres, from their official PDF, which is 44 and-a-bit feet. So go on, whats your turning circle in feet.... Because weight is an issue?... remember, european cars are "about" the same size as a Prius, although not as heavy as we dont carry that slab of batteries underneath. Did you have snow-chains?.. Its this simple, we manage here in UK with approx 50% of the cars on front wheel drive [of those that aint 4wd...] and if you cant get up a hill forwards, there is the question of what is your need to get up that type of slope. Our "hills" are about the same as your San-Francisco roads, and those are light hills, we have up to 25% gradients in places, and I have been up one of those, one Mottram Moor, in an old-style mini with snow on the road and no gritter back last century "No problem", just short of one foot of snow at its deepest. Old Land-rover with "trick" gear box could engage either axle as driven or all four, and I never had issues with front wheel only on that. Going back to Gregs issue with turning circles, if you have the capability, try locking the diffs and see what the turning circle is then?.. on old 4wds that didnt have traction control in uk, the turning circle becomes bloody unmanageable, but then again, so does road driving anyway, which is why the old 4wd gear box has a small forest of gear selectors to do 2wd/4wd/lock diffs/fwd/rwd/etc and a bag of chips.... If you want to go over the top, I had a friend who "stretched" a Land-rover and made it 6 wheel... Now that was an education?.. he also made it rear-wheel-steer, because why not, and it was an extra front axle he put on the back anyway. [hydraulic steering from an early power steering unit at a %-age of what the front turned..] Made the turning circle a lot better than a double rigid axle rear. here, only the mayor roads get treated if it treatens to freeze/melt cycle a lot, nothing else. Most of us have frontwheel drive, but high quality studded tires for grip and safety, only people who live in area's that might not get plowed a lot own 4x4's for snow or of course muddy seasons. Thanks for making that point, you also are in european territory, "There must be a reason" why we all went Front wheel friendly. Its not just the weight issues of having shorter drive-lines, nor is it the space of having transversal engines, its mostly the thing of the rear wheels on a mini only being there to stop the back end dragging on the floor... We engineered a car where the front end COULD take all the power and braking without making it a pig on roller-skates, and built maybe a front heavy car, but one that had all the poise, and importantly, manoeuvrability, to manage out tight and twisty country roads. With ease. Of course 4wd is better... Its just we cant all afford that. Yet. Enter the Fiat Panda..... Its a micro-mini-suv with 4wd. Its also doing a lot to prove all round independent suspension "Can be made to Work" with 4wd and a budget. Keep watching, because the europeans are working with Hybrids, and front wheel petrol drive shafts up front with Electric Hybrid rear engines that also do Back-EMF braking [KERS systems off F1 cars...] alongside their disc brakes are going to be huge sooner or later... no rear drive shafts?.. and a battery pack that flattens out the underside of the car?.. aerodynamics and a low centre of gravity all in one?.. This exists in McLarens at this time, it will in other vehicles as the bug spreads. Otherwise... I am looking at a 7seat Transit tourneo at the moment, with rear row deleted, to make it a 5seater. Its MUCH bigger than any estate. Luggage AND dog with all five of us for Holidays?.. no problem. And yet it has twice the economy in MPG than my current car?. It also has comfortable knee room for six-foot people in the back, I can fit in with ease, so my kids who are taller than me?.. comfort and room, and no head height issues. Its FRONT wheel drive... and that makes the back a lower loading height, it makes the whole vehicle a lower centre of gravity, and its bloody comfortable. Take a look... www.ford.co.uk/CommercialVehicles/TourneoCustom |
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 7, 2016 14:03:18 GMT
My Jeep Wrangler has a differential on both the front and back axles so that the left and right wheels can turn different speeds. But there is no differential between the front and rear axles. When in four-wheel-drive, this causes some "hopping" when making a tight turn. One of the Jeep Cherokees I own has a third differential in the transfer case. That car has no problem making tight turns while in four-wheel drive. The transfer case shift has an option to lock out that third differential for some additional traction. When it is locked out, that car also hops while making a tight turn.
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Post by the light works on Dec 7, 2016 14:51:28 GMT
as I said, I can make a U-turn in just over four lanes. as in if I am on the outside lane of a four lane road, and try to make a u-turn I WILL cross the fog line on the other side. that's at full lock turn. the wife's, if I had it in two wheel drive, I could probably turn tighter if no police were watching, but it would get noisy and smelly, and if I did it wrong, I'd be nosed into the ditch instead of turned around.
as for the car on the hill, sans chains I made it about 10 feet. with chains (proper diamond pattern chains, not the cheep roller cables) I made it about 20. turned it around and drove it the full 300 with nary a slip.
and the Jeep - well that might have something to do with that generation of Jeep having about twice the thrust-mass ratio of the land rover. I could control it as long as I held back to just the lightest feather touch on the throttle.
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 7, 2016 14:58:23 GMT
I think your jeep may be just a little over powered. If that's possible.
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Post by the light works on Dec 7, 2016 15:16:31 GMT
I think your jeep may be just a little over powered. If that's possible. no such thing.  I could also spin the tires in the Acura in the first three gears, but I had to press harder, and it didn't try to yank the steering wheel out of my hands. and the Jeep only has three gears. |
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 7, 2016 16:07:30 GMT
the reasons we bought our citroen xsara picasso:
-cheap
-many options standard
-practical and big, removing the rear 3 individual chairs, that can actually fit 3 adults, makes it a decent small transport vehicle similar in loading space to a berlingo.
-decent enough mpg.
-good driving seats and easy to get into even for tall people.
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Post by the light works on Dec 7, 2016 16:17:21 GMT
the reasons we bought our citroen xsara picasso: -cheap -many options standard -practical and big, removing the rear 3 individual chairs, that can actually fit 3 adults, makes it a decent small transport vehicle similar in loading space to a berlingo. -decent enough mpg. -good driving seats and easy to get into even for tall people. the reasons I bought my Jeep: -young -single -no responsibilities -already at maximum insurance rates -could afford a totally impractical high maintenance low gas mileage car. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 7, 2016 16:39:25 GMT
-young -single -no responsibilities -already at maximum insurance rates -could afford a totally impractical high maintenance low gas mileage car. Add, uncomfortable for anything over 10 miles, doesn't handle well and too small to carry anything. But I love mine anyway. Maintenance really hasn't been a problem, although it's considerably newer than yours. Mine is only 18 years old and only has 200K on the odometer. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 7, 2016 16:58:48 GMT
-young -single -no responsibilities -already at maximum insurance rates -could afford a totally impractical high maintenance low gas mileage car. Add, uncomfortable for anything over 10 miles, doesn't handle well and too small to carry anything. But I love mine anyway. Maintenance really hasn't been a problem, although it's considerably newer than yours. Mine is only 18 years old and only has 200K on the odometer. actually, mine is great on comfort for road trips. if you ignore the noise from the ragtop and the weather is cool enough the fact that you have to run the heater to help keep it cool in dense traffic isn't an issue. it's 30 years old and can only count to 100K. handling is fine once you accept that it's going to want to sniff everything on both sides of the road. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Dec 7, 2016 18:53:25 GMT
Add, uncomfortable for anything over 10 miles, doesn't handle well and too small to carry anything. But I love mine anyway. Maintenance really hasn't been a problem, although it's considerably newer than yours. Mine is only 18 years old and only has 200K on the odometer. actually, mine is great on comfort for road trips. if you ignore the noise from the ragtop and the weather is cool enough the fact that you have to run the heater to help keep it cool in dense traffic isn't an issue. it's 30 years old and can only count to 100K. handling is fine once you accept that it's going to want to sniff everything on both sides of the road. For longer road trips, I usually take one of the Cherokees or my wife's Excursion if she'll let me use it. This past summer, I took the Wrangler to Indianapolis and back for the FDIC fire show. A total of about 400 miles. It took me a week to get the kinks out of my back. |
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Post by kharnynb on Dec 7, 2016 19:08:15 GMT
that's why i like the picasso, as a tall guy with back problems, french cars are just really great for seating and drive comfort.
American cars would be nice too, but our gas prices are just too damn high.
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Post by the light works on Dec 8, 2016 4:38:24 GMT
actually, mine is great on comfort for road trips. if you ignore the noise from the ragtop and the weather is cool enough the fact that you have to run the heater to help keep it cool in dense traffic isn't an issue. it's 30 years old and can only count to 100K. handling is fine once you accept that it's going to want to sniff everything on both sides of the road. For longer road trips, I usually take one of the Cherokees or my wife's Excursion if she'll let me use it. This past summer, I took the Wrangler to Indianapolis and back for the FDIC fire show. A total of about 400 miles. It took me a week to get the kinks out of my back. I spent a while driving it to visit a girlfriend 500 miles away (one-way) once a month. of course, it does have aftermarket seats. (and yes, we're talking about 80 gallons of gas per trip) |
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Post by the light works on Dec 8, 2016 4:39:58 GMT
that's why i like the picasso, as a tall guy with back problems, french cars are just really great for seating and drive comfort. American cars would be nice too, but our gas prices are just too damn high. I think the minivan averages around 28 MPG. which was phenomenal when it was new. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 8, 2016 10:38:01 GMT
Problem on Power...
My car will do 0-60 in under 10, thats enough for me.
It wont spin tyres in anything but 1st, well, I dont think so, I never tried.
It tops out at over 140mph... maybe even 150... I dont have access to a race track and idiocy enough to try going any faster to find out?.. its my only car and I cant afford another right now?..
Either way, I can, if I so wish, on a race track, go at speeds twice the legal road limit, and more.
Therefore, is my Car too powerful?..
It has a tow hitch, I can pull the same weight as my car and more "with ease", and no, I dont need a special car licence for that trailer, because I can legally tow with a vehicle where gross weight is 44 tons, stgo weight, I am licensed up to 100 tons, needing a trailer licence for my car is therefore akin to a second handle on a coffee cup?...
My car will cruise at 30 in 5th and pull up hills.
Its less than two litres.
This is the problem with American "Mo-Power" versus UK "Enough power"
I have one person, and a lunch box, why the hell do I need a jet engine under the hood?...
I get 30+ mpg even when in a hurry... 35 fully laden doing 70[ish revise downwards on bends] on a motorway in good weather.
It does what I need to do...
And importantly, I can U-turn in the two lane road outside the doctors surgery [which is slightly wider than some roads] without touching the kerbs... its a 5seater comfortably, family car, Toyota Avensis.
Do I need "More"?..
Do I really need twice the size car for 5 people?..
That Van I am looking at is maybe a foot longer, and maybe a few inches wider, but its certainly a LOT smaller than the average American "Family" land yacht.
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