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Post by silverdragon on Mar 12, 2017 8:58:13 GMT
Proposal.
They say "Newer is always better", I disagree..
So hows about we test that Older still can do the job?. I take my own vehicle or something equivalent which is a 15 yr old Toyota and run it in a 24hr of lemons race, then compare its performance to an equivalent newer model slightly second hand but no more than 3 yrs old, and see who does more laps. This is a time challenge, not a race, its how many laps can you do without having to stop for repairs, so set a maximum number of laps per hour to discourage wheel-to-wheel racing?..
Both cars must not be performance tuned, be equivalent engines, "Road legal" and safety checked before the race, the race is strictly no contact, and other than Roll cage, or internal safety fuel cell, no other changes be made. You may do stops every 4 hrs and change oil up t5o twice in the race as well as driver and tyres during that stop if you so wish, maximum 20 mins per 8 hrs servicing, light repairs as needed, [minor scrapes on missing the corner and other such incidents] no major engineering changes like engine or gearbox etc, but no driver to do more than 4 hrs at the wheel every 8 hrs, so you will need a team of drivers as well.
I propose that my "road tested" experienced vehicle will probably do an equivalent number of laps to the new car. So what was the improvement?.
I also propose that the first car liable to break down would be the newer car.
I also propose you could do similar with a good condition vehicle from the 70's, something like a Ford Escort, that has had a few bits of maintenance done, but it would still do the 24hrs of challenge quite easily.
Is this a crazy idea or just proof that vehicles have not improved on reliability issues.
The Myth is that newer is better, I say Busted. Because my initial response is if you want to plan to drive from here to spain, say American equivalent of coast to coast route 66 style, I would not hesitate in thinking my own car could do that quite easily. And its not exactly new.
It may probably benefit from a good service, oil, all filters, maybe coolants and probably spark plugs by now, before I go, but thats just basic upkeep isnt it?..
I would suggest that afterwards I may need a timing chain, but only because the service history of my own car is its getting close to when I should do that by mielage?..
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 12, 2017 16:15:37 GMT
Most car dealers will tell you that the majority of major repairs they do is in the first thousand miles of driving. After that, their service shops see a lot of routine maintenance items such as oil changes, brake jobs and tuneups. After the vehicle reaches 100,000 miles, they start to see the major repairs again.
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Post by ironhold on Mar 13, 2017 0:00:14 GMT
The car I drive is old enough that I can press the brake *and* accelerator at the same time. This is of significant value to me, as the town I live in has intersections going along upgrades in the road. Since it's an automatic, I can put one foot on the brake and one foot on the gas, using the gas to rev the engine so that it's already ready go to when I let the brake off; this way, I go forward instead of risking rolling backwards in the split second it'd take me to move my one foot from one pedal to another.
After the whole scare with people hitting the wrong pedals, "newer" cars have been designed so that the engine will ignore commands sent by both pedals. This means I'm back to one foot for everything, which means I'm back to risking the car rolling backwards.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 13, 2017 0:06:04 GMT
The car I drive is old enough that I can press the brake *and* accelerator at the same time. This is of significant value to me, as the town I live in has intersections going along upgrades in the road. Since it's an automatic, I can put one foot on the brake and one foot on the gas, using the gas to rev the engine so that it's already ready go to when I let the brake off; this way, I go forward instead of risking rolling backwards in the split second it'd take me to move my one foot from one pedal to another. After the whole scare with people hitting the wrong pedals, "newer" cars have been designed so that the engine will ignore commands sent by both pedals. This means I'm back to one foot for everything, which means I'm back to risking the car rolling backwards. Think of the Borg. You will adapt.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 0:53:40 GMT
The car I drive is old enough that I can press the brake *and* accelerator at the same time. This is of significant value to me, as the town I live in has intersections going along upgrades in the road. Since it's an automatic, I can put one foot on the brake and one foot on the gas, using the gas to rev the engine so that it's already ready go to when I let the brake off; this way, I go forward instead of risking rolling backwards in the split second it'd take me to move my one foot from one pedal to another. After the whole scare with people hitting the wrong pedals, "newer" cars have been designed so that the engine will ignore commands sent by both pedals. This means I'm back to one foot for everything, which means I'm back to risking the car rolling backwards. Think of the Borg. You will adapt. the car I drive is new enough I can step off the brake without the automatic transmission slipping enough for it to roll back. but the problem we will run into is that the definition of "better" is subject to interpretation. case in point: the citroen 2CV is a better car because you can perform all the maintenance and repair task, yourself. the Smart is better because you don't have to. a major part of my class this weekend covered the fact that modern building construction is better than "legacy" construction, in every way - right up until 20 minutes after it catches fire. then the whole thing falls in a heap.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 13, 2017 0:59:34 GMT
Older is better? Every birthday I tell myself that, even though I'm not buying it.
Maybe I should just tell myself that being alive is better than being dead. We'll see how long it takes me to start questioning that one.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 13, 2017 9:50:53 GMT
The car I drive is old enough that I can press the brake *and* accelerator at the same time. I do that as well, in its advanced form, its called trail braking, in that it forces the un-driven wheels to get a grip and allows a more precise control of speed with an instant brake if needed... its also an excellent anti-drift thing. This type of driving actually is bad for you, I can hear a thousand hairy truckers shouting "What you dont have a hand-brake?.. thats what its for" in my head?.. In the UK, we have three pedals, the number of cross-footed breakers is minimum, because left-foot braking is left to the experts [like me?..- ] and your left foot in UK is reserved for the clutch, your brake is applied by hand whilst you are stopped... But I can see your problem with over-engineered cars where electronics confuse the inputs when you need BOTH controls at the same time. Such as a FWD tapping the brakes momentarily to get the back end back in line whilst drifting a corner... However... I have been in "modern" cars with punch-button handbrake. I hate them with vengeance even more than I hate early automatic cars. How are you supposed to ease the car forward under control if its an on/off switch?.. And then when its an auto-off, how do you turn the thing off manually anyway?.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 13:57:06 GMT
The car I drive is old enough that I can press the brake *and* accelerator at the same time. I do that as well, in its advanced form, its called trail braking, in that it forces the un-driven wheels to get a grip and allows a more precise control of speed with an instant brake if needed... its also an excellent anti-drift thing. This type of driving actually is bad for you, I can hear a thousand hairy truckers shouting "What you dont have a hand-brake?.. thats what its for" in my head?.. In the UK, we have three pedals, the number of cross-footed breakers is minimum, because left-foot braking is left to the experts [like me?..- ] and your left foot in UK is reserved for the clutch, your brake is applied by hand whilst you are stopped... But I can see your problem with over-engineered cars where electronics confuse the inputs when you need BOTH controls at the same time. Such as a FWD tapping the brakes momentarily to get the back end back in line whilst drifting a corner... However... I have been in "modern" cars with punch-button handbrake. I hate them with vengeance even more than I hate early automatic cars. How are you supposed to ease the car forward under control if its an on/off switch?.. And then when its an auto-off, how do you turn the thing off manually anyway?. in the US, most cars built between the 70s and 90s had three pedals: gas, brake, and hand brake. but yes, automatic transmissions have given american drivers atrocious pedal discipline. this to the point that our worst drivers control their speed by pressing the throttle down and then regulating their speed with the brake pedal as needed. this, not electronic interference, is why the new drive by wire systems disable the throttle when the brake is on. that and it pretty much guarantees the brake can overrule the throttle. and as for handbraking in ordinary driving, if God had meant for you to only work one pedal per foot at a time, he wouldn't have given you feet long enough to reach two at once.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 13, 2017 15:49:40 GMT
I didn't know new cars worked that way. I guess that's because the newest car I have is 14 years old.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 15:55:46 GMT
I didn't know new cars worked that way. I guess that's because the newest car I have is 14 years old. my new car is an 02. that would make it 15 years old, now. I do cheat if I am in a steep driveway and switch it to 4-low before I put it in park. it makes it easier to get it back out of park. but on an average road, it will actually creep forward when I release the brake. for that matter, the minivan which is a mid 90s model usually creeps forward when I let off the brake.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 13, 2017 18:18:51 GMT
The basic idea has some merit, that 'old' isn't always better than 'new'.
However, using cars - or for that matter any type of machine - as the basis is not really practical or 'scientific'. Apart from anything else the chances of a machine breaking down on the one day they will be testing are slim unless there is something very wrong with one of them.
I'd go with 'ways of doing things' that could be tested in the shop. For example comparing nail guns to hammers. Things that are simpler to do, don't require anything really specialised and that would allow for multiple tests within the filming time to come to a judgement as to the overall picture rather than something that is a bit too specific.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 18:32:22 GMT
The basic idea has some merit, that 'old' isn't always better than 'new'. However, using cars - or for that matter any type of machine - as the basis is not really practical or 'scientific'. Apart from anything else the chances of a machine breaking down on the one day they will be testing are slim unless there is something very wrong with one of them. I'd go with 'ways of doing things' that could be tested in the shop. For example comparing nail guns to hammers. Things that are simpler to do, don't require anything really specialised and that would allow for multiple tests within the filming time to come to a judgement as to the overall picture rather than something that is a bit too specific. I do like the "ways of doing things" change. for example, there are definitely some metrics available that can compare use of nail guns to use of hammers. of course, bear in mind that one of those metrics is skill required for use. it takes a pretty distinguished individual to bend a nail over with a nailgun. and just like with everything else, it still depends on what your definition of "better" is.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 13, 2017 19:25:46 GMT
Better would depend on what specific thing was being tested. For example a nail gun vs hammer might take into account time to build and overall quality and strength of the finished article. This would be easy enough if they bought two identical wooden shelving units.
This is one example, We'd need more 'old vs new' techniques than just that.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 19:51:09 GMT
Better would depend on what specific thing was being tested. For example a nail gun vs hammer might take into account time to build and overall quality and strength of the finished article. This would be easy enough if they bought two identical wooden shelving units. This is one example, We'd need more 'old vs new' techniques than just that. one difference I have been told by carpenters is that hand nailing two pieces of wood draws them more tightly together, while power driving the nail tends to leave them as they were when the nail drove through them. nailing framing together is more secure when hand nailed. nailing up trim is easier to keep positioned when power nailing. hand nailing fiber cement board (James Hardie exterior finish) leaves you throwing away a lot of bent nails. it takes the first shot power of an air nailer to drive the nail through the cement board without bending it. however, that can also blow small pieces of wood apart. but we could add coping joints in trim vs mitering the joint. a lot of old vs. new is essentially a comparison between spending time on craftsmanship, and using power tools to trade craftsmanship for speed.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 13, 2017 20:47:41 GMT
I find my thumb seems to hold up better using a nail gun vs a hammer.
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Post by the light works on Mar 13, 2017 20:58:23 GMT
I find my thumb seems to hold up better using a nail gun vs a hammer. you might change your opinion if you ever accidentally hit your thumb with a nail gun. I understand it isn't pleasant. I might add I used to recite the mantra that you won't hit your thumb if you hold your hammer in both hands - and then I did.
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Post by wvengineer on Mar 14, 2017 10:38:54 GMT
If you want to further muddy the waters, you can throw in the use of power hammers. Example: www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-3-1-2-in-Full-Size-Palm-Nailer-R350PNF/207103093A basic test may be as follows: Using 2x4s, make a T joint, each one double nailed. Nails must be perpendicular, not angled. Then do a pull test on each to see how much force it take to pull the point apart. P.S. My father in law managed to put a nail though his thumb with a nail gun. He still prefers them to swinging a hammer though.
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Post by the light works on Mar 14, 2017 14:01:01 GMT
If you want to further muddy the waters, you can throw in the use of power hammers. Example: www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-3-1-2-in-Full-Size-Palm-Nailer-R350PNF/207103093A basic test may be as follows: Using 2x4s, make a T joint, each one double nailed. Nails must be perpendicular, not angled. Then do a pull test on each to see how much force it take to pull the point apart. P.S. My father in law managed to put a nail though his thumb with a nail gun. He still prefers them to swinging a hammer though. also do a basic stability test - basically how much they wiggle under, say, 8 foot pounds of force.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 14, 2017 14:58:47 GMT
If you really want it to hold together, use screws.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 15, 2017 7:15:57 GMT
I didn't know new cars worked that way. I guess that's because the newest car I have is 14 years old. my new car is an 02. that would make it 15 years old, now. I do cheat if I am in a steep driveway and switch it to 4-low before I put it in park. it makes it easier to get it back out of park. but on an average road, it will actually creep forward when I release the brake. for that matter, the minivan which is a mid 90s model usually creeps forward when I let off the brake. Cheat....?... Thats advanced driving techniques basics to put the thing in gear on steep parking places right there. The idea is that even if it does turn the engine, it wont start it, and the engine will perform as a brake, so if it moves, it will do so slowly, so you can either catch it quickly or it wont do much damage. On the steep road I used to live in in my early years as a driver, I could guarantee that almost all the cars parked there were in gear with steering wheels pointing to the kerb. Those that didnt do that, you can pick your car up from the garden of the house at the bottom of the hill. They had at least three maybe four or five that I cant remember rightly that ended up there at some point. But brakes back in the 50's 60's era vehicles were not that good, thats one thing that has improved?..
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