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Post by silverdragon on Mar 15, 2017 7:24:03 GMT
The basic idea has some merit, that 'old' isn't always better than 'new'. However, using cars - or for that matter any type of machine - as the basis is not really practical or 'scientific'. Apart from anything else the chances of a machine breaking down on the one day they will be testing are slim unless there is something very wrong with one of them. I'd go with 'ways of doing things' that could be tested in the shop. For example comparing nail guns to hammers. Things that are simpler to do, don't require anything really specialised and that would allow for multiple tests within the filming time to come to a judgement as to the overall picture rather than something that is a bit too specific. I do like the "ways of doing things" change. for example, there are definitely some metrics available that can compare use of nail guns to use of hammers. of course, bear in mind that one of those metrics is skill required for use. it takes a pretty distinguished individual to bend a nail over with a nailgun. Hello!.... guilty as charged..... Ok, so you want to know how I did that?. My nailgun, like many others, has a depth setting, so you can leave "so much" not embedded. The thing is also capable of doing wire staples, so you dont want to set it to cut the wire by going too deep?... Or if you are doing, like I do, small pins in delicate woodwork, [headless pins?..] you dont want to mash the surface up, so send the last few millimetres in by pin hammer and possibly bury it with a punch. Then "Iron" the surface lightly to expand the wood, and you cant see where it went in if that works properly... Problem is, I tended to move the gun as it fires, and it caught 2 out of 10 as it moved?..
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 15, 2017 7:33:05 GMT
Better would depend on what specific thing was being tested. For example a nail gun vs hammer might take into account time to build and overall quality and strength of the finished article. This would be easy enough if they bought two identical wooden shelving units. This is one example, We'd need more 'old vs new' techniques than just that. one difference I have been told by carpenters is that hand nailing two pieces of wood draws them more tightly together, while power driving the nail tends to leave them as they were when the nail drove through them. nailing framing together is more secure when hand nailed. nailing up trim is easier to keep positioned when power nailing. hand nailing fiber cement board (James Hardie exterior finish) leaves you throwing away a lot of bent nails. it takes the first shot power of an air nailer to drive the nail through the cement board without bending it. however, that can also blow small pieces of wood apart. but we could add coping joints in trim vs mitering the joint. a lot of old vs. new is essentially a comparison between spending time on craftsmanship, and using power tools to trade craftsmanship for speed. Power nailing also tends to leave, as I mention above, "Skid marks" on the surface, so you end up having to sand it again. Craftsmen, take a look at Roofing techniques, American vs UK. American "Mo-Power" use the biggest nail gun they can find, UK uses a bigger hammer for the bigger nails, but hardly ever use a nail gun, because by the time you have set up the gun and got power up there the job can be half finished doing it by hand, and again, you spend more time positioning a nail in the right place by hand that you do "about there" with a gun. I use a nailgun for speed, say putting the back on a cupboard, a line of 20 pins down one side of a big carcase need a lot of time, you can do that in seconds with the gun, its the back, it doesnt have to be ultra neat. Again, leave them slightly proud, and hand drive the last bit for extra snug, with the ability to pull them back when you "miss" On a roof, the hammer is lighter and easier to wield than the gun, and, we tend to think, does less damage, as there is an inbuilt variable power slider on a hammer?..
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 15, 2017 7:43:36 GMT
If you really want it to hold together, use screws. There is a system that powers in screws by gun three quarters of the way and then you use a conventional screwdriver to finish. Dont ask, I dont like the idea, its wrong on so many levels?. But on this score. The way I was taught, slowly, do maximum quarter of the screw at a time with an electric driver, allow the thing to cool down before you finish... I was taught that powering in a screw in one as fast as you could will overheat the wood and make it swell up, therefore, the screw will loosen over time as the wood relaxes. Is it just me?.. Is this just another myth?.. Plus, when I hear someone using a power driver on the teeVee, I hear a sound that sounds like they are bashing the clutch all the way in, a series of loud and fast clicks as it works... What is this please?. Is it something unique to American powered screwdrivers?. Are the fools using it on hammer setting as well?.. Or is it that didnt adjust the clutch properly ?.. The clutch being the part that allows the driver to stop driving at a certain tightness?.. Mine just makes a whirring noise until it gets tight then starts the clicking to tell me to let go of the trigger. Also, screws, pilot hole or not?. I was always taught drill pilot holes in the wood to allow the screw somewhere to go without splitting the wood.. something that has served me well, as the times I didnt, I split the wood.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 15, 2017 8:00:31 GMT
This thread is starting to wander... not that it matters, because its covering old vs new again but in techniques of caprentry. Just to grab it back.
The new series of Top Gear, just started on BBC2, first program, they are challenged to do a distance drive test in cars that have covered the distance to the moon and back, so go out and buy cars that have done over 400,000 mile each.
Surprisingly, to us europeans that is, all of them still worked. Surprise?.. well, things aint that far apart here in UK, 400,000 mile for a car is 20 yrs of driving for an average driver... Mine, the one I say is 15 yrs old, has less than 90,000 on the clock. Barely broke in yeah?..
But back to top gear, unsurprisingly the manage to take the front quarter off the Volvo, suspension and all, but on repair of that, it still manages to drive, and thats kinda how the program works innit?.. even if its a serious mangle it MUST still work, or behind the scenes repair it 'til it does?..
So should we all be expecting half a million miles out of a car?. Personally I say yes, because I have driven trucks that have gone round the clock more times than mickeys right hand.think mickey mouse watch there if you didnt get that?..
"Properly cared for" I expect nothing less than servicing at regular intervals. Not maybe as regular as they say in the manuals, especially the ones that say you MUST take it back to the dealer you bought it from for servicing because he will charge you a lot for topping up the windscreen wash [ And I had this argument on mine when at the first service they charged me for a lot that didnt need doing, including the windscreen wash, that I knew was 90% full because I had filled it up myself a few days before... I never returned there for service again.]
Yes I know, this is a myth thats a time waster if we wanted to wait. Who here has actually sat there and done the whole of half a million miles in one car in less than a few years?.. well, except maybe me, who's job it is to put 200,000 on a truck in a year?..
However.
My proposal was, go get some cars that had DONE the half-million-mile already.
If you were to go get half a dozen cars, three old, three new, and drive from one place to another, will the older cars get there or are they doomed to fail?. And yes I did suggest that they should be "Serviced" and checked over first to ensure they are fit for the road and have the right level and type of fluids in place. As in, make sure that its only the car that has done half a million miles, not the oil as well?.. and has the washer fluid ever been topped up since it was new?.. And take a look at what you were buying in the first place, if its sat on three popped tyres and hasnt turned a wheel in over 2 yrs, move on, pick a better one?..
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 15, 2017 14:12:27 GMT
Not to diverted too far off topic but many electric screwdrivers work like impact wrenches. I have a Milwaukee driver that works that way. It seems to do a much better job at driving screws then a conventional direct drive power screwdriver. It "pounds" continually while it is driving the screw in, just like an pneumatic impact wrench does.
As for pilot holes, if it's hardwood I usually use them but if it's softwood I don't. Most 2 x 4 framing is soft.
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Post by the light works on Mar 15, 2017 14:16:31 GMT
my new car is an 02. that would make it 15 years old, now. I do cheat if I am in a steep driveway and switch it to 4-low before I put it in park. it makes it easier to get it back out of park. but on an average road, it will actually creep forward when I release the brake. for that matter, the minivan which is a mid 90s model usually creeps forward when I let off the brake. Cheat....?... Thats advanced driving techniques basics to put the thing in gear on steep parking places right there. The idea is that even if it does turn the engine, it wont start it, and the engine will perform as a brake, so if it moves, it will do so slowly, so you can either catch it quickly or it wont do much damage. On the steep road I used to live in in my early years as a driver, I could guarantee that almost all the cars parked there were in gear with steering wheels pointing to the kerb. Those that didnt do that, you can pick your car up from the garden of the house at the bottom of the hill. They had at least three maybe four or five that I cant remember rightly that ended up there at some point. But brakes back in the 50's 60's era vehicles were not that good, thats one thing that has improved?.. that's switch the transfer case to low range, so there's not as much torque on the transmission.
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Post by ponytail61 on Mar 15, 2017 14:27:46 GMT
Plus, when I hear someone using a power driver on the teeVee, I hear a sound that sounds like they are bashing the clutch all the way in, a series of loud and fast clicks as it works... What is this please?. Is it something unique to American powered screwdrivers?. Are the fools using it on hammer setting as well?.. Or is it that didnt adjust the clutch properly ?.. The clutch being the part that allows the driver to stop driving at a certain tightness?.. Mine just makes a whirring noise until it gets tight then starts the clicking to tell me to let go of the trigger. More than likely they were using impact drivers. They are the new thing for driving screws. Well I first noticed other trades using them about 10 years ago when a major manufacturer was giving them away in kits. Personally I am old school and have never used one to drive screws, but I do see their advantage in some applications. About the 5 min mark in this video shows the advantage.
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Post by the light works on Mar 15, 2017 15:10:38 GMT
Plus, when I hear someone using a power driver on the teeVee, I hear a sound that sounds like they are bashing the clutch all the way in, a series of loud and fast clicks as it works... What is this please?. Is it something unique to American powered screwdrivers?. Are the fools using it on hammer setting as well?.. Or is it that didnt adjust the clutch properly ?.. The clutch being the part that allows the driver to stop driving at a certain tightness?.. Mine just makes a whirring noise until it gets tight then starts the clicking to tell me to let go of the trigger. More than likely they were using impact drivers. They are the new thing for driving screws. Well I first noticed other trades using them about 10 years ago when a major manufacturer was giving them away in kits. Personally I am old school and have never used one to drive screws, but I do see their advantage in some applications. About the 5 min mark in this video shows the advantage. to put it in gearhead terms, it is the miniature version of an air impact wrench. couple it with a gear puller, and you have a miracle tool (which I used to pull the eccentric off a hydraulic motor in the car wash last week when trying to turn it with a standard wrench was twisting the puller)
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Post by the light works on Mar 15, 2017 15:13:12 GMT
power drill vs brace and bit.
any takers? to quote one of my instructors, "those guys used to be masters at sharpening bits. they could drill a hole almost as fast with the brace and bit as we can drill with our power drills"
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 15, 2017 16:43:47 GMT
Lets leave machinery on its own alone. The problem is that with something like a car regardless of how many miles it may have driven HOW it was driven will also be a factor, along with where. Vehicles that have been driven hard, badly or in rough/tough conditions are going to have more issues that those that were driven more carefully. These are factors that would require a detailed history of a car PLUS an examination as to the driving style of every prior owner. The latter is utterly unrealistic for the show.
Comparing the modern to the 'old' would make more sense and be easier if its about techniques/ideas/processes as well as allowing a wider number of tests.
Some examples might be; Comparing letters to social media. The latter is faster and more convenient. But are letters better for personal matters? Are Ebooks 'better' than traditional print when it comes to learning? What about audio books? Are electronic databases really that much better than traditional paper versions? Is traditional soap better than modern hand washes for killing germs?
See where I'm going with this?
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 15, 2017 17:03:00 GMT
So we're banning old style tools vs new ones? How about just moving that discussion to the "tools we have known" thread.
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 15, 2017 17:22:34 GMT
Not automatically no, although note that the hosts may have more experience with one type of tool than another, which could make the results questionable. That would probably require bringing in 'experts', which MB generally prefer to avoid.
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Post by the light works on Mar 15, 2017 17:38:28 GMT
Not automatically no, although note that the hosts may have more experience with one type of tool than another, which could make the results questionable. That would probably require bringing in 'experts', which MB generally prefer to avoid. although one factor in the old vs new IS the need for experts or lack thereof. ebooks vs paper books. an ebook can carry a lot lore data in a given volume. but paper books can operate on sunlight, and really don't take all that much to function. also, it takes a significant error to cause a major loss of data.
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 15, 2017 18:51:12 GMT
Not automatically no, although note that the hosts may have more experience with one type of tool than another, which could make the results questionable. That would probably require bringing in 'experts', which MB generally prefer to avoid. although one factor in the old vs new IS the need for experts or lack thereof. ebooks vs paper books. an ebook can carry a lot lore data in a given volume. but paper books can operate on sunlight, and really don't take all that much to function. also, it takes a significant error to cause a major loss of data. And they don't automatically delete themselves after a predetermined amount of time like some ebooks do. You buy it, you own it until either you throw it out or give it away.
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Post by the light works on Mar 15, 2017 19:02:19 GMT
although one factor in the old vs new IS the need for experts or lack thereof. ebooks vs paper books. an ebook can carry a lot lore data in a given volume. but paper books can operate on sunlight, and really don't take all that much to function. also, it takes a significant error to cause a major loss of data. And they don't automatically delete themselves after a predetermined amount of time like some ebooks do. You buy it, you own it until either you throw it out or give it away. but you have to buy an add-on before you can use them in large print mode.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 16, 2017 7:50:00 GMT
Not to diverted too far off topic but many electric screwdrivers work like impact wrenches. I have a Milwaukee driver that works that way. It seems to do a much better job at driving screws then a conventional direct drive power screwdriver. It "pounds" continually while it is driving the screw in, just like an pneumatic impact wrench does. As for pilot holes, if it's hardwood I usually use them but if it's softwood I don't. Most 2 x 4 framing is soft. That has answered the question, it has a hammer setting, and you say many people dont turn it off?.. The hammer setting is for light drilling into masonry, not for screws?.. Edit, reading later post, thats not right, its the impact "driver" setting, like backing off the clutch on my own set of drivers a notch to get that clicking sound...Plus, when I hear someone using a power driver on the teeVee, I hear a sound that sounds like they are bashing the clutch all the way in, a series of loud and fast clicks as it works... What is this please?. More than likely they were using impact drivers. They are the new thing for driving screws. Well I first noticed other trades using them about 10 years ago when a major manufacturer was giving them away in kits. Personally I am old school and have never used one to drive screws, but I do see their advantage in some applications. About the 5 min mark in this video shows the advantage. If you use an impact setting on a screw you "Bruise" the wood as you push the screw in. Yes it works "Faster" by smashing the screw into a tight hole or one you didnt pre-drill, but that hurts the wood, that will swell up as you push the screw in. Problem is, it will then settle back down again, leaving the screw loose. Therefore, using that impact all the way with the screw, either you should have pre-drilled a smaller hole if the screw is too tight, or you just made a mess of smashing a screw, because you shouldnt need the impact all the way, just the last few steps to tighten the screw, no screw needs to be tight all the way in, it needs to tighten up the last quarter of screw length, the rest of the screw is providing an anchor. If you push a screw thats tight all the way in, it will just split the wood over time. Even hard wood. You are driving a wedge in there with that screw. You have left no space for the screw to exist in without pushing the wood sideways. Again this is why on screws longer than an inch, you part drive the screw, let it cool, part drive, cool, finish it off, and then tighten, to ensure you dont overcook the screw, especially if its a long one, and why screws should be put in on the lower speed of the drill?.. Hardwood, always ALWAYS even with self-tapping screws, drill a smaller pilot hole, and if needs must, grease the screw with beeswax or vegetable oil or linseed oil to help the wood stabilise quicker. I blame the current state of the world that says no job cant be done better by doing it at twice the speed. Perfection takes time, and thats why there are Craftsmen. Case in point, my next door neighbour put up fences roughly the same time as I did, wooden panels. He bought his cheep, and boasted they looked almost the same as my hand-built ones. I let that slide... He has now moved, but not before he replaced his cheep panels with better built ones... But the ones he left have all cracked where he screwed them in, because he used too-wide screws in a hurry didnt pre-drill and just smashed them into place as a rush job after storm damage. I have never said a word to him about his ham-fisted work ethics, however, when he did mention that my panels were still "Good" after that storm, I did mention carefully so not to make to big a point that I had selected the wood I believed would stand up longer and put them in in a way that allowed some flexing, because I had seen storm damage before, and suspected it may happen again?.. as in, why install 4 inch fence post when you can get 6 inch, and as I managed to get a load of 8 inch rough sawn for the price of 6 inch planed and just ran a sander over them to take the worst off, I used thicker posts on Metal ground spikes that prevent rotting, and treated the lot before they went in anyway. He just said "I wish we had had this conversation before I put them in" and left it at that. I had spent roughly twice what he had, but as mine are still going, I think I over-did that job just about right.I tend to over-engineer a job, on the grounds of I build things to last.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 16, 2017 8:13:22 GMT
This thread is going in more directions that I thought it would when I started it, but, I like where it is going. Especially the craftsman versus bodge-it-and-scarper "Mo-Power" if at first you dont succeed use a bigger hammer.
On that, in the previous post, dont take it as me dismissing impact drivers. If you are using one to drive a screw into a properly raw-plugged masonry hole, go ahead, use it and be happy, because its why I do with my own tools, I use big long screws that pass through plaster right into the heart of the brick when I am screwing a kitchen cabinet to a wall, I dont intend them to come off again, and the screw should fit nice and tight....
But as stated in the video, if your doing "Fine" work, dont use it, you will wreck both the piece and the screw.
The right tool for the job. However, my problem is, I see workmen using that impact driver for "Everything", including the bits they shouldnt, and thats wrong innit?..
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 16, 2017 14:11:04 GMT
So you say powerdrive a screw partially in and then finish it by hand is superior to just driving it home all at once. I say, hogwash. It sounds to me like a myth. And you know what we do with myths around these parts. We bust ( or confirm) them.
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Post by the light works on Mar 16, 2017 14:11:05 GMT
This thread is going in more directions that I thought it would when I started it, but, I like where it is going. Especially the craftsman versus bodge-it-and-scarper "Mo-Power" if at first you dont succeed use a bigger hammer. On that, in the previous post, dont take it as me dismissing impact drivers. If you are using one to drive a screw into a properly raw-plugged masonry hole, go ahead, use it and be happy, because its why I do with my own tools, I use big long screws that pass through plaster right into the heart of the brick when I am screwing a kitchen cabinet to a wall, I dont intend them to come off again, and the screw should fit nice and tight.... But as stated in the video, if your doing "Fine" work, dont use it, you will wreck both the piece and the screw. The right tool for the job. However, my problem is, I see workmen using that impact driver for "Everything", including the bits they shouldnt, and thats wrong innit?.. the other side of the impact driver is that when a craftsman is using it for light work, he uses it at much less throttle, and it puts a lot less torque than just twisting the screw in. the best finish carpenters I work with still use reversible pilot drill/driver tools for the finest work (set the tip one way and drill a complete pilot hole all-in-one, then set it the other way and put the screw in) but those are rebuild the cabinet, because the cabinet maker got something wrong - type carpenters. but in most ways, a "rattle gun" will give you a better result driving a screw than a regular driver. it is comparable to the difference between driving a nail with a proper sized hammer and pushing it in with a press. put in direct terms, I can drive my 2½" stainless steel screws without twisting them off, when I use the rattle gun.
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Post by the light works on Mar 16, 2017 14:20:12 GMT
So you say powerdrive a screw partially in and then finish it by hand is superior to just driving it home all at once. I say, hogwash. It sounds to me like a myth. And you know what we do with myths around these parts. We bust ( or confirm) them. sounds like a good topic. here is our common "one and done" screw. the image doesn't show they typically have a cut in the tip to make them slice through fibers on the way in, something like a tap. so: compare to pilot drilling a traditional wood screw, with options of power drive max speed one shot. power drive low speed in three steps pilot and drive impact drive one shot hammer in and turn to tight and the one that left me wondering what the guy was thinking: power drive to close and then hit with a hammer.
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