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Post by ironhold on Mar 20, 2019 20:15:16 GMT
Simply put Hasbro isn't going to offer much money for such rights; It would be a very minor market in which to sell such properties and just not worth it. So even if Disney did sell them back to Hasbro it would be for pocket change; most likely less than the production cost of the average Marvel or Star Wars film. Worse for Disney however is the point about Hasbro I've made before; Hasbro seems to be positioning themselves to be able to drop their Disney rights if they have to. The awful truth for Disney is that Hasbro doesn't need Disney as much as Disney needs Hasbro. And even a best case scenario is unlikely to involve Hasbro paying anything close to what they have been for the rights. The worse case is that Hasbro walks away and Disney is left looking around for another company that can make action figures on the scale they need. The next biggest company would be Mattel...who are some $5 billion in the red as it is and therefore simply couldn't offer the same deal. Even if they were willing to do so that would result in Disney risking their toy lines on a company that could very easily end up going out of business and leave those rights ready to be picked up randomly by other companies. Disney itself might not be in a position where they could afford to buy the rights back at the time, leaving the various toy rights scattered between various companies. Disney potentially has a major problem on its hands, in that they have spent far too much and made far too little financially. While managing to burn bridges with customers and I'm guessing even the media at this point. Disney needs successful films not just in the short term but in the long term. They are currently very heavily dependent on Marvel to maintain the appearance of strength and power. But should that erode to any degree they could be in serious trouble as their hold over the media is going to fall and problems be more readily reported. It's not going to take much for the Mouse to be crippled for a decade or more. If the streaming service under-performs, the Marvel films start not to make as much money or tank or people simply don't go to their theme parks in enough numbers. Well, its likely to be 10 years or more for them to cover all the costs they have accumulated in the last few years. Until then they simply won't have the funds to expand further. Hasbro, as a company, already owns Kenner, Nerf, Playskool, Galoob, Tonka, Parker Brothers, Milton Bradley, Tiger Electronics, Palitoy, and Wizards of the Coast (which, in turn, bought out TSR); many of these companies have been brought into the larger fold and renamed, but others now exist as sub-brands. Hasbro's long-time Japanese partner? Takara-Tomy, so named because it represents a merger between Takara (Hasbro's partner) and Tomy, two of the largest toy companies in Japan. T-T also owns controlling stake in Tatsunoko Pro, one of the oldest and most respected animation studios in the country. Mattel has Fisher-Price and Megablox in addition to its own in-house brands and divisions. If Mattel does in fact merge with Hasbro, then Hasbro will have cornered the toy industry in America. They'll be so busy working with the new opportunities this provides that they won't have to care about continuing to produce any Star Wars product beyond the bare minimum needed to keep the collectors happy.* Hasbro could give Disney two giant middle fingers during the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade and there'd be nothing Disney could do about it. Yes, there are other toy companies that Disney could give licenses to. But most of them are B-listers like Lanard (whose pride and joy, a G. I. Joe knock-off known as "The Corps!", is only being kept alive by Wal-Mart), Spin Masters (who, IIRC, will be getting the DC action figures license), Trend Masters, Maisto, and Funrise (who produce product for Hasbro under license anyway and so would be loathe to do anything). About the only company in any real position to challenge Hasbro right now even pre-merger is Bandai, and Bandai of America just lost the "Power Rangers" franchise to... Hasbro. So yeah... Disney needs to be kissing Hasbro's feet right now if they don't want to lose those merchandise sales. Maybe even straight-up give Hasbro those shows as a gesture of goodwill. *One example? WWE wrestling. During the 1980s, wrestler Robert Remus and Hasbro reached an agreement for his "Sgt. Slaughter" wrestler character to be included in the "G. I. Joe" line. As part of it, Remus voiced the character in the cartoon series, and made several appearances in-costume doing intros and outros for various mini-series from the cartoon. In 1991 the WWF decided that Remus was being too insubordinate about something and so decided to punish him by forcing him to become a villain. This led to Hasbro severing the deal. Sgt. Slaughter still has a loyal following within the older G. I. Joe fans, and Hasbro licensee Funskool was using the original 1985 Slaughter figure mold as late as circa 2008 when they lost the license. But since WWE now has full ownership of all rights involving the character, all Hasbro's been able to do is get permission from them for a handful of convention-exclusive figure releases. Mattel has the rights to produce WWE product, and so if Hasbro bought them out it'd mean that they could do a mass-release Sgt. Slaughter figure for the first time since 1990. Fans of both franchises would be all over such a figure release, especially if it was part of a series of figures done using Hasbro's unified 3.75-inch body system *and* the regular 10-inch Mattel WWE body system. This in turn could lead to sales figures being inflated *just* enough to give a good report to WWE and keep the license post-merger. |
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Post by ironhold on Mar 20, 2019 20:27:52 GMT
Since the last post was big enough:  Actual industry promotional image for the 1990 season of the "G. I. Joe" cartoon. As we can see from this, the Sgt. Slaughter character was very much front and center in the cartoon series through the first part of that season, and the writers included a tribute when they were forced to discontinue the character. If Hasbro buys Mattel out and gets the WWE license that Mattel holds, you'll hear the nerd cheers a kilometer away. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 20, 2019 21:47:33 GMT
Its sounding more and more like Hasbro is in a win win situation here.
If Disney wants to continue with Hasbro making their toy lines they are going to have to offer them a far better deal than the one that is currently in place.
If Disney refuses Hasbro can walk away and leave Disney struggling to find a company to take over while divesting themselves of what has become an unprofitable franchise. Indeed there probably isn't a company that could take over the entirety of Disney's lines and none who would be interested in taking over the Star Wars rights without also getting the Marvel rights; and even then under better terms than Disney is used to.
If Disney does get another company in chances are that company is going to have serious financial problems, and in the case of Mattel to the point that they could end up being bought by another company in the near future...the most likely candidate being Hasbro. Who would for all intents end up regaining the rights from Disney under better terms or being able to demand a renegotiation of terms in the happy knowledge that Disney would no longer have an option B.
The last option would be for Disney to enter the toy industry directly and produce their own products. However doing such a thing would take years to set up and put in place, unless Disney was willing and able to spend Billions it doesn't have to buy an existing company. Convincing both the board and shareholders that this was remotely a good idea would be next to impossible even assuming that they could raise the capital in the first place. This would also most likely require that they maintained a high share price, which means more 'toxic fan' narrative and alienating even most customers than they already have done. And all without any experience of manufacturing or hard evidence they wouldn't be paying off the loans for the next twenty years.
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Post by the light works on Mar 21, 2019 1:10:19 GMT
so what you're saying is that Hasbro is the new order.
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Post by ironhold on Mar 21, 2019 1:17:58 GMT
I think the *only* reason Hasbro hasn't laid it all out for Disney is the fact that Hasbro's making *that* much money off of the Marvel licenses. And as we've seen, the situation with Brie Larson is making the future of the Marvel movie franchise tenuous.
That one season of Transformers? Unless Disney wants to start a fight over it, Hasbro could just as easily get with T-T to do a release of the original Japanese-language presentation. Trying to secure the rights to the English dub is a formality at this point. [1]
The simple fact of the matter is that the Star Wars license is now a millstone around Hasbro's neck, and they have quite a bit to gain by getting rid of it.
[1] Hasbro could hypothetically commission a new dub right now, but voice actor Barry Stigler (the villainous Scourge) and musician Paul Gordon have since passed away, meaning any new work would have to be done without them. Additionally, voice actor Neil Kaplan (Optimus Prime and minor villain Ro-Tor) is involved in a rather ugly to-do in the voice acting industry right now, so Hasbro may be loathe to bring him back in as well. Even if Hasbro keeps most of the original musical score, re-casting these three roles may be headache enough to prevent it, let alone the overall expense of doing so and what it would take to make that money back.
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Post by ironhold on Mar 21, 2019 1:25:55 GMT
so what you're saying is that Hasbro is the new order. Pretty much. The global toy industry has been consolidating since the 1990s, but because of how comparatively easy it is to get your own toy company going and how normally below-the-radar it is even for business types the usual regulatory bodies haven't felt any compulsion to investigate. But yeah. Hasbro's so big even now that when Harmony-Gold filed a frivolous lawsuit against them a few years ago a number of folks - myself included - wholly expected Hasbro to just swallow them whole and spit out the bones (re: anything that isn't the "Robotech" franchise). |
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Post by the light works on Mar 21, 2019 2:07:28 GMT
so what you're saying is that Hasbro is the new order. Pretty much. The global toy industry has been consolidating since the 1990s, but because of how comparatively easy it is to get your own toy company going and how normally below-the-radar it is even for business types the usual regulatory bodies haven't felt any compulsion to investigate. But yeah. Hasbro's so big even now that when Harmony-Gold filed a frivolous lawsuit against them a few years ago a number of folks - myself included - wholly expected Hasbro to just swallow them whole and spit out the bones (re: anything that isn't the "Robotech" franchise). I don't know about you, but I see a problem with a company getting that much industry dominance. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 21, 2019 2:46:58 GMT
Pretty much. The global toy industry has been consolidating since the 1990s, but because of how comparatively easy it is to get your own toy company going and how normally below-the-radar it is even for business types the usual regulatory bodies haven't felt any compulsion to investigate. But yeah. Hasbro's so big even now that when Harmony-Gold filed a frivolous lawsuit against them a few years ago a number of folks - myself included - wholly expected Hasbro to just swallow them whole and spit out the bones (re: anything that isn't the "Robotech" franchise). I don't know about you, but I see a problem with a company getting that much industry dominance. Some industries, yes. This one? I really don't give a rip. Hasbro could have 100% of the doll, excuse me, action figure business and I don't think the world would notice. Except maybe Ironhold and Cyber. |
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Post by ironhold on Mar 21, 2019 6:06:25 GMT
I don't know about you, but I see a problem with a company getting that much industry dominance. Some industries, yes. This one? I really don't give a rip. Hasbro could have 100% of the doll, excuse me, action figure business and I don't think the world would notice. Except maybe Ironhold and Cyber. Anyone with a functional 3-D printer and a basic knowledge of CAD can hypothetically make their own action figures. In fact, there are people who make money on the side doing just that, or at least making parts and accessories so that people can customize theirs. Hasbro will never have 100% of that market. |
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 21, 2019 7:57:43 GMT
I don't know about you, but I see a problem with a company getting that much industry dominance. Some industries, yes. This one? I really don't give a rip. Hasbro could have 100% of the doll, excuse me, action figure business and I don't think the world would notice. Except maybe Ironhold and Cyber. Parents of children who are paying over the odds might, the ones that actually play with their action figures |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 21, 2019 12:33:47 GMT
Some industries, yes. This one? I really don't give a rip. Hasbro could have 100% of the doll, excuse me, action figure business and I don't think the world would notice. Except maybe Ironhold and Cyber. Parents of children who are paying over the odds might, the ones that actually play with their action figures Smart parents just won’t buy them if they’re too expensive. It’s the dumb ones that will fight over them. |
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Post by the light works on Mar 21, 2019 14:16:37 GMT
I don't know about you, but I see a problem with a company getting that much industry dominance. Some industries, yes. This one? I really don't give a rip. Hasbro could have 100% of the doll, excuse me, action figure business and I don't think the world would notice. Except maybe Ironhold and Cyber. it's when they start manipulating the movie and TV industries that they cross a line, in my book. |
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Post by the light works on Mar 21, 2019 14:22:00 GMT
Parents of children who are paying over the odds might, the ones that actually play with their action figures Smart parents just won’t buy them if they’re too expensive. It’s the dumb ones that will fight over them. in my mind, one of the evilest things my generation did was turn toys into investment strategies. even when our ancestors were making children be miniature adults, their toys were still for playing with. |
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Post by ironhold on Mar 21, 2019 20:35:47 GMT
Smart parents just won’t buy them if they’re too expensive. It’s the dumb ones that will fight over them. in my mind, one of the evilest things my generation did was turn toys into investment strategies. even when our ancestors were making children be miniature adults, their toys were still for playing with. There was actually a bit about a decade ago where the Transformers toy collecting market nearly collapsed overnight. A massive quantity of mint in package 1980s product emerged from China in short order, and nobody could agree on whether or not it was product produced under license for sale and distribution in China back in the day, or if it was recent knock-offs in darn good packaging. By "massive quantity", I mean "unopened cases of product were being unearthed and made available." Making matters worse, much of the product represented figures who were being sought after by fans but who, for one reason or another, were unlikely to get re-released as part of various collector efforts. If this was vintage product, it could be worth incredible sums. If not, people were going to lose their shirts. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 22, 2019 0:31:04 GMT
It’s one thing to invest in the companies that make this crap, but to invest in the crap itself?
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Post by the light works on Mar 22, 2019 2:10:16 GMT
It’s one thing to invest in the companies that make this crap, but to invest in the crap itself? and all based on the premise that some very wealthy and peter pannish baby boomers were willing to pay large sums of money to get control of childhood memories that have dwindled down to only having a few available through natural attrition, then if Xers and millennials preserve every single thing that was intended to be a childhood toy untouched, then it will become equally rare and valuable. the real winners (for the toy industry) are the ones who buy two - one to preserve and one to display - because every one of them buys twice as much product as they would, otherwise. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Mar 22, 2019 4:05:56 GMT
It’s one thing to invest in the companies that make this crap, but to invest in the crap itself? and all based on the premise that some very wealthy and peter pannish baby boomers were willing to pay large sums of money to get control of childhood memories that have dwindled down to only having a few available through natural attrition, then if Xers and millennials preserve every single thing that was intended to be a childhood toy untouched, then it will become equally rare and valuable. the real winners (for the toy industry) are the ones who buy two - one to preserve and one to display - because every one of them buys twice as much product as they would, otherwise. I have a few items that are of great value to me. These are family heirlooms that are treasures to me, but would be considered worthless junk to anyone else. I hope that when I pass them on, my kids will appreciate their true value. |
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 22, 2019 11:11:26 GMT
It’s one thing to invest in the companies that make this crap, but to invest in the crap itself? and all based on the premise that some very wealthy and peter pannish baby boomers were willing to pay large sums of money to get control of childhood memories that have dwindled down to only having a few available through natural attrition, then if Xers and millennials preserve every single thing that was intended to be a childhood toy untouched, then it will become equally rare and valuable. the real winners (for the toy industry) are the ones who buy two - one to preserve and one to display - because every one of them buys twice as much product as they would, otherwise. The other side to the coin is tha t if no one is actually playing with them, and everyone is storing them hoping they will become rare they won't. It's like in this country Edward the Eigth Coranation mugs are ten a penny because everyone kept hold of them. |
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Post by the light works on Mar 22, 2019 14:07:27 GMT
and all based on the premise that some very wealthy and peter pannish baby boomers were willing to pay large sums of money to get control of childhood memories that have dwindled down to only having a few available through natural attrition, then if Xers and millennials preserve every single thing that was intended to be a childhood toy untouched, then it will become equally rare and valuable. the real winners (for the toy industry) are the ones who buy two - one to preserve and one to display - because every one of them buys twice as much product as they would, otherwise. The other side to the coin is tha t if no one is actually playing with them, and everyone is storing them hoping they will become rare they won't. It's like in this country Edward the Eigth Coranation mugs are ten a penny because everyone kept hold of them. yep, that was my point. but it is great for the toy companies because people are still buying them at the same rate they would be if they were playing with them - but they can skimp on manufacture, because nobody is playing with them to realize how easily they break. |
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Post by ironhold on Mar 22, 2019 16:08:08 GMT
The other side to the coin is tha t if no one is actually playing with them, and everyone is storing them hoping they will become rare they won't. It's like in this country Edward the Eigth Coranation mugs are ten a penny because everyone kept hold of them. yep, that was my point. but it is great for the toy companies because people are still buying them at the same rate they would be if they were playing with them - but they can skimp on manufacture, because nobody is playing with them to realize how easily they break. It's my understanding that the first generation of McFarlane Toys figures were so fragile that you could break them just getting them out of the packaging. You were supposed to leave them in the packaging and admire them for their detailing, not actually do anything with them. |
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