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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2019 19:26:15 GMT
Add a gay/hetro/alien love triangle into all of that... One of the more interesting episodes was about over indulgence in social media. I will give him credit, the views they have taken on the Orville are not overly one political side or the other. They are hitting issues on both ends. At lot reminds me of classic TOS where they use teh scifi setting to make a point, but are not insulting the viewed with it. I missed that in Trek. The political commentary they have used in STD is defiantly one sided, and not subtle or well done. if "defiantly one sided" was a typo, it's a good one.
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 4, 2019 19:39:26 GMT
I always have trouble with those two worlds...
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 4, 2019 19:40:20 GMT
To say nothing of inter-species sexual relations, which is what kicked off the show in the first episode. in the original, spock being hlf vulcan, half human was less controversial than when Kirk kissed Uhura. in fact, Kirk kissing every pretty alien he ever met was less controversial than Kirk kissing Uhura. Keep in mind, TOS was made in the 60's. Just having a black woman on the bridge was somewhat controversial. A inter-racial kiss was over the top at that time. Fortunately, things have changed since then.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 4, 2019 19:41:07 GMT
I always have trouble with those two worlds... In this case, either one works.
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 4, 2019 19:53:06 GMT
in the original, spock being hlf vulcan, half human was less controversial than when Kirk kissed Uhura. in fact, Kirk kissing every pretty alien he ever met was less controversial than Kirk kissing Uhura. Keep in mind, TOS was made in the 60's. Just having a black woman on the bridge was somewhat controversial. A inter-racial kiss was over the top at that time. Fortunately, things have changed since then. If she has green skin, that's okay, but if is dark brown, well that just won't do. The only they could pull it off was to have it be forced by aliens. Yeah, the 60's were a weird time. One of the funny parts of it was that there were originally plans to film two versions. One with them kissing and one where they don't. After filming the kissing version, Bill and Nichelle deliberately flubbed their lines or wildly crossing their eyes for every take of the non-kissing version, making the film of that version unusable. That episode ended up being one of the most popular ones at the time and got more fan mail than any other episode. Surprisingly, nearly all of it was positives. They only got one somewhat negative letter. It said: "I am totally opposed to the mixing of the races. However, any time a red-blooded American boy like Captain Kirk gets a beautiful dame in his arms that looks like Uhura, he ain't gonna fight it." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirk_and_Uhura%27s_kiss
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2019 20:12:43 GMT
in the original, spock being hlf vulcan, half human was less controversial than when Kirk kissed Uhura. in fact, Kirk kissing every pretty alien he ever met was less controversial than Kirk kissing Uhura. Keep in mind, TOS was made in the 60's. Just having a black woman on the bridge was somewhat controversial. A inter-racial kiss was over the top at that time. Fortunately, things have changed since then. I recall one documentary said that Roddenberry originally wanted uhura to be a command officer, but ultimately traded her being out of command rank for there being no smoking in the show.
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2019 20:22:18 GMT
speaking of antivaxx, the clark county measles epidemic is up to 49 confirmed cases - 42 unvaccinated, 1 with only one shot, and 6 unknown vaccination status.
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 4, 2019 20:34:32 GMT
speaking of antivaxx, the clark county measles epidemic is up to 49 confirmed cases - 42 unvaccinated, 1 with only one shot, and 6 unknown vaccination status. When my daughter had her first baby, it really surprised me how many of her friends tried to convince here not to have the baby vaccinated. Many of them didn't even have kids. Even now, some of them shun her for getting the vaccinations. I told her that in my opinion, they are friends not worth having.
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2019 21:02:53 GMT
speaking of antivaxx, the clark county measles epidemic is up to 49 confirmed cases - 42 unvaccinated, 1 with only one shot, and 6 unknown vaccination status. When my daughter had her first baby, it really surprised me how many of her friends tried to convince here not to have the baby vaccinated. Many of them didn't even have kids. Even now, some of them shun her for getting the vaccinations. I told her that in my opinion, they are friends not worth having. it impresses me how unscientific antivaxxers can be. some of their claims take real effort.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 4, 2019 21:49:30 GMT
The Kirk/Uhura Kiss; Was NOT the first interracial kiss on TV. There were at least two other shows in the US alone that had interracial kisses, one of which had a FAR bigger audience years before Trek aired and neither of which had a forced kiss as was the case with Trek.
Kirk the womanizer; Actually false. For a start the only Orion women Kirk met was insane, its the episode with Garth of Izar. The Green Orion woman seen in the titles was from the original pilot (with Captain Pike) who also didn't kiss her. Someone actually went through the Trek series and noted down the number of cases where sexual encounters took place or were implied to have taken place and placed them in context to see if they were consensual. Turns out that the infamous Womanizer James T Kirk comes in well behind that other famous womanizer William T Riker. Who in turn is utterly outclassed by one Jean-Luc Picard.
Uhura as command officer; She actually IS a command officer, but Roddenberry seems to have managed to slip this under the radar by not specifically naming her as such. There is an episode where Kirk is talking to Uhura on the Bridge about the condition of the ship, then orders several decks to go to red alert. Star Fleet's chain of command and structure is based on that of the US Navy. Which means that the Captain passes orders through the next most senior officer and on down. (Which is why Riker screams 'Shields up, red alert' after Picard orders alert stations even though everyone on the bridge can hear the original order). As Kirk is passing that order through Uhura that means that she was the most senior command level officer after him on the Bridge at the time. This in turn would mean she is most likely the ships 4th Officer; Spock, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura. So if Roddenberry did come to a deal regarding Uhura he basically ignored it.
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2019 22:25:18 GMT
The Kirk/Uhura Kiss; Was NOT the first interracial kiss on TV. There were at least two other shows in the US alone that had interracial kisses, one of which had a FAR bigger audience years before Trek aired and neither of which had a forced kiss as was the case with Trek. Kirk the womanizer; Actually false. For a start the only Orion women Kirk met was insane, its the episode with Garth of Izar. The Green Orion woman seen in the titles was from the original pilot (with Captain Pike) who also didn't kiss her. Someone actually went through the Trek series and noted down the number of cases where sexual encounters took place or were implied to have taken place and placed them in context to see if they were consensual. Turns out that the infamous Womanizer James T Kirk comes in well behind that other famous womanizer William T Riker. Who in turn is utterly outclassed by one Jean-Luc Picard. Uhura as command officer; She actually IS a command officer, but Roddenberry seems to have managed to slip this under the radar by not specifically naming her as such. There is an episode where Kirk is talking to Uhura on the Bridge about the condition of the ship, then orders several decks to go to red alert. Star Fleet's chain of command and structure is based on that of the US Navy. Which means that the Captain passes orders through the next most senior officer and on down. (Which is why Riker screams 'Shields up, red alert' after Picard orders alert stations even though everyone on the bridge can hear the original order). As Kirk is passing that order through Uhura that means that she was the most senior command level officer after him on the Bridge at the time. This in turn would mean she is most likely the ships 4th Officer; Spock, Scotty, Sulu, Uhura. So if Roddenberry did come to a deal regarding Uhura he basically ignored it. according to this bio, she wasn't promoted to lieutenant commander until 2271 under William Decker: www.startrek.com/database_article/uhura
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 5, 2019 1:38:42 GMT
Command officer is a position held on a ship irrespective of rank, much as 'Captain' is the term used for the senior commanding officer of a ship regardless of the officers actual rank.
This is why Harry Kim was a command officer on Voyager even though he was an Ensign. Likewise Travis on Enterprise along with Wesley and Ro on TNG were all apt of their ships command staff even though they only held Ensign ranks.
The top three command positions do, clearly, go with rank as they are Captain, Commander (first officer) and Lt Commander (second officer). But below this it is the position held on the ship rather than rank that denotes if you are in a command level position. Hence Bel'ana and Geordi are command officers due to being the chief engineers of their respective ships not their rank. Just as Data and Harry Kim were command officers due to them being the science/Ops officers on their ships not because of their ranks.
The same holds for Uhura, who is a command officer due to being the communications officer. A position that by TNG era was folded into the Tactical officers duties for the most part.
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Post by the light works on Feb 5, 2019 4:20:04 GMT
Command officer is a position held on a ship irrespective of rank, much as 'Captain' is the term used for the senior commanding officer of a ship regardless of the officers actual rank. This is why Harry Kim was a command officer on Voyager even though he was an Ensign. Likewise Travis on Enterprise along with Wesley and Ro on TNG were all apt of their ships command staff even though they only held Ensign ranks. The top three command positions do, clearly, go with rank as they are Captain, Commander (first officer) and Lt Commander (second officer). But below this it is the position held on the ship rather than rank that denotes if you are in a command level position. Hence Bel'ana and Geordi are command officers due to being the chief engineers of their respective ships not their rank. Just as Data and Harry Kim were command officers due to them being the science/Ops officers on their ships not because of their ranks. The same holds for Uhura, who is a command officer due to being the communications officer. A position that by TNG era was folded into the Tactical officers duties for the most part. both Montgomery Scott and Leonard McCoy were lieutenant commanders. you'll note I said he traded command RANK, not command staff.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 5, 2019 16:01:44 GMT
Traded command rank...oh Gene Roddenberry you wonderful genius you. I suspect he must have got one hell of a laugh out of that knowing that he could keep her on the command staff regardless of her rank. I'm guessing that the execs he was dealing with didn't understand the US Navy's command structure that was the basis for Star Fleets command structure.
McCoy was a full commander, as were Doctors Crusher and Polaski. Bashir was a Lieutenant on DS9, the EMH on Voyager seems to have held a technical rank of Commander while Phlox from Enterprise wasn't in Star Fleet and as such doesn't seem to have held any official rank.
In the context of where they were serving this makes sense. We've seen multiple times that Star Ships get called in to deal with medical emergencies, and in such situations the Ships Doctor has authority even over the Captain unless the ship itself is at risk. Larger ships, such as Kirk and Picard's Enterprises, would become the focus of any major medical missions with the Doctor on those ships becoming the senior medical officer on scene. So it makes sense that the Doctors on those ships would hold the rank of Commander, especially as (at least by TNG era) you have to take and pass an additional course and test to reach that rank*. After all they would be expected to command not only their own medical staff, but in major emergencies could also end up commanding the staff from other ships along with any medical personal who were already on scene.
Bashir was stationed on DS9 which couldn't by its nature go anywhere to deal with medical emergencies, while the Defiant's medical staff and facilities were the equivalent of having a medically trained police officer at an accident scene; Just good enough to determine how bad the situation actually is and start to lay the groundwork for dealing with it when or if larger teams can arrive. (In situations where Bashir is dealing with big emergencies without additional support he's either unable to get such aid, due to other ships being too far away, the station being under quarantine and on several occasions he is clearly working with local medical staff as well.)
The EMH is a different matter, as by definition he was intended for short term emergency use. It seems that the EMH does actually hold a technical rank of Commander, but that this is limited to purely medical duties and most likely so that he is in a position to give orders to any medical support staff on hand and/or call up any medically trained personal (such as Tom Paris) as needed. He is however probably subordinate to any flesh and blood Doctors assigned to the ship - although this was not an issue on Voyager.
Pholox wasn't in Star Fleet, and therefore didn't hold any official rank and was most likely technically a civilian. (Although he DID serve in the Deblobian military at one point and may retain his military rank from that time). Looking at how he worked and areas in which he was able to override the Captain it seems that his authority and duties were effectively identical to his counterparts some 200 years later. Which is interesting as it seems that while Star Fleet had a lot to learn and work out in Archer's time. The medical side of things and the duties of the ships Doctor was something they seem to have worked out rather well from the start.
In all of these cases however the Ships Doctor, while part of the Command Staff, was outside the chain of command. Or basically for those who don't understand what that means, they would not take command of the ship unless they were the only commissioned officer left on board. Something Doctor Polaski specifically notes in an episode. Doctor Crusher IS seen to command two ships on TNG, the Enterprise herself (Decent 1&2) and the Pastor (All Good Things). In the first case Picard specifically asks or places her in command to free up other senior officers for a search. In the second the ship is identified as a medical ship and she holds the rank of Captain. Pholox does end up commanding the NX 01 in one episode, but only because everyone else had to be placed in cryostasis. Bashir does take command outside his normal medical duties once or twice. But this is down to him being the most senior and experienced officer by a large margin with a small group he was already in command of at the time - or in the case of O'Brian was the only commissioned officer present. Voyagers EMH commands a ship on a couple of occasions, but ended up getting additional programming to allow him to do that (which is specified as being for emergencies should the rest of the command staff being unavailable and makes sense given Voyagers lack of suitable experienced officers).
(*Note; Polaski also notes that she wasn't interested in a command of her own at one point, which has raised the question as to why she held a Commanders rank when that would require her to have taken the Command Training Course/Test. The real world explanation is that the course in question was only invented 4 season's later to allow them to fill time showing Councillor Troi being promoted to full Commander. In universe however it is logical to assume that on a larger ship like the Enterprise, which would probably become the command ship in any major medical emergencies, the position of ships Doctor may require that the holder has the rank of Commander.
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Post by the light works on Feb 5, 2019 16:56:46 GMT
Traded command rank...oh Gene Roddenberry you wonderful genius you. I suspect he must have got one hell of a laugh out of that knowing that he could keep her on the command staff regardless of her rank. I'm guessing that the execs he was dealing with didn't understand the US Navy's command structure that was the basis for Star Fleets command structure. McCoy was a full commander, as were Doctors Crusher and Polaski. Bashir was a Lieutenant on DS9, the EMH on Voyager seems to have held a technical rank of Commander while Phlox from Enterprise wasn't in Star Fleet and as such doesn't seem to have held any official rank. In the context of where they were serving this makes sense. We've seen multiple times that Star Ships get called in to deal with medical emergencies, and in such situations the Ships Doctor has authority even over the Captain unless the ship itself is at risk. Larger ships, such as Kirk and Picard's Enterprises, would become the focus of any major medical missions with the Doctor on those ships becoming the senior medical officer on scene. So it makes sense that the Doctors on those ships would hold the rank of Commander, especially as (at least by TNG era) you have to take and pass an additional course and test to reach that rank*. After all they would be expected to command not only their own medical staff, but in major emergencies could also end up commanding the staff from other ships along with any medical personal who were already on scene. Bashir was stationed on DS9 which couldn't by its nature go anywhere to deal with medical emergencies, while the Defiant's medical staff and facilities were the equivalent of having a medically trained police officer at an accident scene; Just good enough to determine how bad the situation actually is and start to lay the groundwork for dealing with it when or if larger teams can arrive. (In situations where Bashir is dealing with big emergencies without additional support he's either unable to get such aid, due to other ships being too far away, the station being under quarantine and on several occasions he is clearly working with local medical staff as well.) The EMH is a different matter, as by definition he was intended for short term emergency use. It seems that the EMH does actually hold a technical rank of Commander, but that this is limited to purely medical duties and most likely so that he is in a position to give orders to any medical support staff on hand and/or call up any medically trained personal (such as Tom Paris) as needed. He is however probably subordinate to any flesh and blood Doctors assigned to the ship - although this was not an issue on Voyager. Pholox wasn't in Star Fleet, and therefore didn't hold any official rank and was most likely technically a civilian. (Although he DID serve in the Deblobian military at one point and may retain his military rank from that time). Looking at how he worked and areas in which he was able to override the Captain it seems that his authority and duties were effectively identical to his counterparts some 200 years later. Which is interesting as it seems that while Star Fleet had a lot to learn and work out in Archer's time. The medical side of things and the duties of the ships Doctor was something they seem to have worked out rather well from the start. In all of these cases however the Ships Doctor, while part of the Command Staff, was outside the chain of command. Or basically for those who don't understand what that means, they would not take command of the ship unless they were the only commissioned officer left on board. Something Doctor Polaski specifically notes in an episode. Doctor Crusher IS seen to command two ships on TNG, the Enterprise herself (Decent 1&2) and the Pastor (All Good Things). In the first case Picard specifically asks or places her in command to free up other senior officers for a search. In the second the ship is identified as a medical ship and she holds the rank of Captain. Pholox does end up commanding the NX 01 in one episode, but only because everyone else had to be placed in cryostasis. Bashir does take command outside his normal medical duties once or twice. But this is down to him being the most senior and experienced officer by a large margin with a small group he was already in command of at the time - or in the case of O'Brian was the only commissioned officer present. Voyagers EMH commands a ship on a couple of occasions, but ended up getting additional programming to allow him to do that (which is specified as being for emergencies should the rest of the command staff being unavailable and makes sense given Voyagers lack of suitable experienced officers). (*Note; Polaski also notes that she wasn't interested in a command of her own at one point, which has raised the question as to why she held a Commanders rank when that would require her to have taken the Command Training Course/Test. The real world explanation is that the course in question was only invented 4 season's later to allow them to fill time showing Councillor Troi being promoted to full Commander. In universe however it is logical to assume that on a larger ship like the Enterprise, which would probably become the command ship in any major medical emergencies, the position of ships Doctor may require that the holder has the rank of Commander. speaking of doctors, there is an episode of the new star trek in which the actors for both the EMH AND Phlox are guest stars.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 5, 2019 18:16:00 GMT
Star Trek or The Orville?
Those actors are in episode 3 of season 2 of The Orville.
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 5, 2019 18:20:31 GMT
Like he said, the "new" Star Trek. *wink*
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Post by GTCGreg on Feb 5, 2019 19:41:42 GMT
speaking of doctors, there is an episode of the new star trek in which the actors for both the EMH AND Phlox are guest stars. And then there was a third doctor, Orville's Dr. Claire Finn, (Penny Johnson) who also played Kasidy Yates, Sisko's girlfriend freighter captain, in DS9.
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Post by ironhold on Feb 5, 2019 19:45:06 GMT
Yeah; all across the internet, people who have seen both have been saying that "The Orville" is closer to Roddenberry's ideal than "Discovery".
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 23, 2019 20:59:21 GMT
Episode 10: Despite Yourself
I finally made tie to watch another episode.
So, the crew of the Discovery quickly figure out that they are caught in an alternate universe. This is the mirror universe that we have visited a number of time before in TOS, DS9 and Ent. Stamets has gone wacko, the means that for they are stuck there for the time being. They recover a computer core from a destroyed Klingon ship to see what is going on. They find out about the cut throat culture of the Terran Empire. Captain Lorca is the most wanted fugitive in the Empire, MB is missing, presumed dead, and the captain of the Discovery it spinless Tilly. They will need to play along to hind in the universe until they can figure out how to get home.
They dig up some basic info about the USS Defiant, NCC-1764. (TOS: The Tholian Web, Ent: In a Mirror Darkly) They figure if they can figure out how that ship crossed over, they can try to repeat it so they can get home.
Meanwhile, Tyler is having every increasing PTSD and flashbacks from his imprisonment by the Klingons. He goes to get checked out by Doc Culber, who finds that he has been extensively manipulated both mentally and physically during his captivity. Doc is going to pull him from active duty, but Tyler kills him.
They need info on the Defiant, so MB, Lorca, and Tyler pose as their mirror selves so that they can get the classified info on the ship. They go to the ISS Shenzhou, MB's old ship to see what they can get.
Issues: Somehow, no one notices the CMO is dead. Also, there are a number of continuity issues. Once they decide to blend in, Lorca orders they to go all out to maintain the ruse. They repaint the ship as the ISS Discovery, update computer displays, and issue everyone new uniforms. However, within a few scenes people are back in old uniforms, so that makes things confusing. Also, some of the camera work is getting really annoying. There are a few conversations where the camera is literally going in circles around them the whole time. It actually made me a bit motion sick.
I will say that I do like the mirror uniforms, if nothing else because they are not so bland. It adds a bit of needed color to things.
Overall, not much happens here. The foreshadowing is as subtle as a ton of blinks. I was glad that they finally got rid of Culber. He has always been annoying.
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