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Post by Lokifan on Dec 22, 2012 1:51:26 GMT
Here's a topic that belongs either in Military, Movie, or Historical. It touches all. I haven't done any research on it at all, but I'm sure some of you have.
The classic "smoke signal" in the movies is depicted by starting a fire, then gathering smoke beneath a blanket and releasing it in clouds to convey information.
Yes, I can believe a message could be sent in terms of "if you see any smoke, the enemy is coming" but I have trouble believing a message could be sent that conveyed information by the equivalent of Morse code--there are simply too many variables.
Colored smoke, of course, could indicate different messages, but that's not what I'm talking about.
It could make a fun episode--set up on a couple of mountain tops and try to send messages back and forth. Try various period woods, leaves, etc., to generate the most smoke. Different sized blankets, wet vs. dry wood, etc.--there are a lot of possibilities.
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Post by c64 on Dec 22, 2012 18:49:58 GMT
Here's a topic that belongs either in Military, Movie, or Historical. It touches all. I haven't done any research on it at all, but I'm sure some of you have. The classic "smoke signal" in the movies is depicted by starting a fire, then gathering smoke beneath a blanket and releasing it in clouds to convey information. Yes, I can believe a message could be sent in terms of "if you see any smoke, the enemy is coming" but I have trouble believing a message could be sent that conveyed information by the equivalent of Morse code--there are simply too many variables. Colored smoke, of course, could indicate different messages, but that's not what I'm talking about. It could make a fun episode--set up on a couple of mountain tops and try to send messages back and forth. Try various period woods, leaves, etc., to generate the most smoke. Different sized blankets, wet vs. dry wood, etc.--there are a lot of possibilities. You are correct, it won't work that way. What was really done was to light three well burning fires with a good distance between them and by throwing wet leaves on individual fires, a number of prepared signals could be made. Blankets were really used but not for the smoke, they shield the fires from view and the signal was made by taking away the blanket view screen so the fire could be seen at night. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Dec 23, 2012 12:30:45 GMT
A quick search shows that smoke signals were used, popular legend has it used essential by the indigenous peoples of North America. Apparently and I did not know this the Aboriginals used smoke to announce their presence in another "mobs" land, their is evidence they had a trading network .
The different tribes in North America had different codes for signals, used blankets to trap smoke which they would release, to form their message and used materials with a high water content that would produce white smoke.
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Post by c64 on Dec 23, 2012 14:56:08 GMT
A quick search shows that smoke signals were used, popular legend has it used essential by the indigenous peoples of North America. Apparently and I did not know this the Aboriginals used smoke to announce their presence in another "mobs" land, their is evidence they had a trading network . The different tribes in North America had different codes for signals, used blankets to trap smoke which they would release, to form their message and used materials with a high water content that would produce white smoke. You can't trap smoke to create individual smoke clouds since this method is fat too unreliable due to different wind conditions. With the blanket, you can block the shine of the fire at night! |
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Post by privatepaddy on Dec 23, 2012 14:58:24 GMT
A quick search shows that smoke signals were used, popular legend has it used essential by the indigenous peoples of North America. Apparently and I did not know this the Aboriginals used smoke to announce their presence in another "mobs" land, their is evidence they had a trading network . The different tribes in North America had different codes for signals, used blankets to trap smoke which they would release, to form their message and used materials with a high water content that would produce white smoke. You can't trap smoke to create individual smoke clouds since this method is fat too unreliable due to different wind conditions. With the blanket, you can block the shine of the fire at night! Just commenting on what I read, which appeared to me to back up the legendary use of smoke signals. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Dec 29, 2012 16:42:44 GMT
You CAN interrupt a smoke column with a wet blanket (or large wet plant materials), then release a "new" column or "cloud" of smoke.
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Post by c64 on Dec 29, 2012 17:06:34 GMT
You CAN interrupt a smoke column with a wet blanket (or large wet plant materials), then release a "new" column or "cloud" of smoke. Not for long and the "new" hotter cloud rises faster than the cold gap so from a distance you can't really make out the gaps. It's highly unreliable! At night, the blanket works very good since it's the light it controls, not the smoke! |
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Post by User Unavailable on Dec 29, 2012 21:40:40 GMT
Don't knock it until you have tried it and it is obvious you have not tried it.
I KNOW it works, I HAVE done it.
Used to be quite common for Boy Scouts to learn how to send smoke signals.
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Post by User Unavailable on Dec 31, 2012 4:11:38 GMT
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Post by c64 on Jan 2, 2013 20:40:29 GMT
Using fireproof blankets under ideal conditions, it works just fine - I don't doubt that. But it's far to unreliable to rely on this method! |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 2, 2013 21:05:32 GMT
Gotta love it when people who have never done something, keep telling folks who have, that it doesn't work or is unreliable.  |
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Post by c64 on Jan 3, 2013 18:06:55 GMT
Gotta love it when people who have never done something, keep telling folks who have, that it doesn't work or is unreliable. And what makes you think that I hadn't charred some blankets and failed every time there was some minor wind to convey a message? Even under ideal conditions, the smoke is hotter than the "non-smoke" so the clouds catch up the gap. It looks like it works from 50 yards distance or so but from another hilltop, you get a blur which gets a lot worse when there is wind. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 3, 2013 18:51:21 GMT
Because it was that obvious.
Also, past experience in knowing that you often comment on things that you know nothing about and will argue with people knowledgeable in fields that you know nothing about, all the while insisting that you are right and they are wrong....
Lastly, if you knew about smoke signals, you would know that a minor wind makes no difference.
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Post by c64 on Jan 3, 2013 19:31:48 GMT
Lastly, if you knew about smoke signals, you would know that a minor wind makes no difference. It doesn't make a different for a continuous column of smoke - that's right. But as soon as you try to signal with individual clouds, they will mix up and turn useless seen over large distances. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 4, 2013 2:46:14 GMT
Riiiight... Because a 3 puff of smoke signal, gets all mixed up and you can't tell there were ever 3 puffs of smoke..... Oh wait, but you CAN, because FIRST you received a signal to be watchful for further signals, so you noticed the 3 separate puffs before they got all mixed up.
Read the links for how sending simple signals works.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 4, 2013 13:11:15 GMT
... and at Night, a Fire than can be seen from a distance, suddenly disappears, then re-appears.... kinda like a signal lamp?.... blankets can hide a fire if you know which direction you are signalling to.
Also, repeated clouds or "puffs" of smoke is an important "I am here" signal, its also "I am alive", and an obvious signal for help.. this I was taught in basic survival techniques....
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Post by the light works on Jan 4, 2013 14:15:24 GMT
somehow I think someone is getting confused and thinking smoke signals use some sort of morse code; or operate at a relatively high baud rate.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 4, 2013 15:00:37 GMT
I see no reason why peoples of equal intelligence to ourselves could not develop a sophisticated signalling system based on interrupting a column of smoke. It is a fallacy to expect hunter gatherer communities to lack the intelligence to use whatever tools were available to them in their world.
If modern man can develop Morse code signal flags and semaphore I see no reason why someone else can't develop their own signalling regime.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 4, 2013 16:15:28 GMT
"Simple" sometimes works better?... you dont need a language, just "Words", help, go, come, and emergency are the basics.
Single column of smoke may mean "All is well", if that fire then goes out and NO smoke it means something is wrong, staccato clouds mean something is coming, BIG puffs can mean emergency.
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Post by the light works on Jan 5, 2013 1:22:13 GMT
I see no reason why peoples of equal intelligence to ourselves could not develop a sophisticated signalling system based on interrupting a column of smoke. It is a fallacy to expect hunter gatherer communities to lack the intelligence to use whatever tools were available to them in their world. If modern man can develop Morse code signal flags and semaphore I see no reason why someone else can't develop their own signalling regime. however, there is no reason to believe they NEEDED to have such a complex distance communication system as we use. it's not an assumption of lack of intelligence - it's an assumption of understanding of the benefits of simplicity. |
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