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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 7, 2013 15:35:45 GMT
rather than persist in your quest to say something that is different from what anyone else has said, why don't you provide us some sort of documentation that implies native American smoke signals were NOT used for rapid communication of basic messages. Now I find that reply sad  , I have never said that this was the way it was done but possibly the way it could have been done. I don't believe these people were as unintelligent as history makes them out to be. But you continue on your own quest, I'll continue to explore possibilities you are not willing to  . You have a good one ;D |
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2013 15:58:06 GMT
rather than persist in your quest to say something that is different from what anyone else has said, why don't you provide us some sort of documentation that implies native American smoke signals were NOT used for rapid communication of basic messages. Now I find that reply sad , I have never said that this was the way it was done but possibly the way it could have been done. I don't believe these people were as unintelligent as history makes them out to be. But you continue on your own quest, I'll continue to explore possibilities you are not willing to . You have a good one ;D history makes them out to be pretty intelligent. they practiced sustainable lifestyle patterns, and had few of the social problems plaguing our own society. don't confuse intelligence with a need for complication. |
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Post by c64 on Jan 7, 2013 17:00:52 GMT
rather than persist in your quest to say something that is different from what anyone else has said, why don't you provide us some sort of documentation that implies native American smoke signals were NOT used for rapid communication of basic messages. I never said they didn't. My point is that they don't do that using a blanket and some kind of Morse code or whatever. As I said, they built several clean burning fire places, usually tree of them and then added fresh green twigs to colour code some of the smoke columns. At night they used the blankets to mask the shine of the fire. The number and pattern of the smoke columns or shine of fires then tell what the signal is for e.g. 3 black smoke columns (or three visible fires) mean "Help, send support!". They simply didn't need any system to convey any information possible, just a small number of signals which require immediate action. Everything else was done using messengers. The same was true for modern civilisation until the telegraph was invented. You just sent a letter, there simply was no "Meet me in 15 minutes", everything was planned days ahead. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 8, 2013 8:36:56 GMT
Erm... this is getting complicated... who is arguing with who now?....
Do we all agree that there was communication?... yes.
Was that using Smoke/Fires.... yes.
Can a more complicated "Language" be developed from that....? OF COURSE.....
Did they all speak the same language anyway?... no.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 8, 2013 11:54:48 GMT
Way I see it SD is from the moment FM provided links on how it was done the myth was in troubled waters still fun to watch even if there is no duct tape. I've never said that the speculation I put forward was the way it was done while the opposing argument " because I said so" is less than valid without some form of verification. Had someone bothered to view FM's link and go here www.accessgenealogy.com/native/signlang/smokesignalsapaches.htmIts hard to deny what the chiefs of the Apache nation say. what I see as the myths future is just how complex a message can be relayed above one by sea two by land. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 8, 2013 23:23:54 GMT
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 9, 2013 2:37:12 GMT
Thanks for the links I had a look at them and found some information about Australia's first nations people that I had wondered about. One could imagine that the codes each tribe used were a jealously kept secret, maybe the interviewers were not told the whole story. Thanks again |
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Post by c64 on Jan 12, 2013 17:46:35 GMT
One could imagine that the codes each tribe used were a jealously kept secret, maybe the interviewers were not told the whole story. Thanks again Well, most stuff doesn't need to be "classified". And a call for help to fight back an attack doesn't need to be secret either since if the enemy knows that help is on their way, they might abort the attack. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 13, 2013 4:36:19 GMT
One could imagine that the codes each tribe used were a jealously kept secret, maybe the interviewers were not told the whole story. Thanks again Well, most stuff doesn't need to be "classified". And a call for help to fight back an attack doesn't need to be secret either since if the enemy knows that help is on their way, they might abort the attack. Try telling that to Rommel |
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Post by ironhold on Jan 13, 2013 4:56:31 GMT
One could imagine that the codes each tribe used were a jealously kept secret, maybe the interviewers were not told the whole story. Thanks again Well, most stuff doesn't need to be "classified". And a call for help to fight back an attack doesn't need to be secret either since if the enemy knows that help is on their way, they might abort the attack. Not always. It could easily be that the entire reason why the attack was launched in the first place was to draw the reinforcements out into the open. In some instances, it's because the reinforcements were sitting on a location that was tactically advantageous, meaning that their departure would allow for a second strike force to move into that location unopposed. *This was essentially Germany's strategy for the invasion of France: cause a major ruckus up in Belgium & The Netherlands to draw France's attention away from the assault group moving through the Alsace - Lorraine region via the Ardennes again. *In the Battletech RPG, fluff text for a particular planet notes that bandits will often raid nearby planets in the hopes of drawing away portions of the garrison. The planet in question is home to a major factory complex that produces military hardware, and so the garrison has standing orders not to leave the planet for any reasons lest someone (else) come in and raid the factory in their absence. In other instances, it could be that it's a trap for the reinforcements; whether deliberate, on-the-fly, or even accidental, who- or whatever comes to relieve the besieged forces is in trouble. *"We Were Soldiers" has the example of a Canadian unit who was given orders to relieve the American unit at the center of the film. This causes the soldiers to voluntarily dislodge themselves from their dug-in position, allowing the North Vietnamese forces to gun them all down. *The book "Team Yankee" has a key sequence in which the team has just taken a hill where the Soviet forces had set up a forward command base. Given that Yankee is now in the Soviet flank, a mechanized infantry unit - one that was supposed to have been sent to the front to relieve a line unit that was exhausted - is instead sent to dislodge them in the mistaken belief that Yankee took heavy casualties in the fighting. Yankee had actually arrayed itself to help cover for its casualties, meaning that the infantry were literally walking into a trap. Not only did the Soviets lose the command base (and the resulting ability to help coordinate their efforts), they also lost a unit of perfectly good, fresh troops, forcing an exhausted unit to remain on the front lines that much longer. It's implied that when NATO caught wind of this, "probing attacks to the Soviet flank to force reinforcements to play defense" became a key strategy. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 13, 2013 5:36:32 GMT
My reference to Field Marshal General Erwin Rommel was not meant to drag this discussion off topic, I was just trying to imagine what he would say to such an idea.
I am by nature curious about many things, the subject of smoke signals and ancient civilisations albeit some are not regarded as so by some people, has me asking some questions. If the US Indians used them, the Australian aboriginal used them. Were they ever used in places like the Salisbury plain in the UK. I know that from Maiden Castle you can see Hardies Monument from which you can see miles of coastline. Its not far from Maiden castle to the Bradbury rings and not far to Old Sarum castle which was built on a hill top fort.There was another Hill top fort I visited overlooking a horse carved into the underlying chalk, I believe it was in Wiltshire. Did they use smoke signals? Would be interesting to find out.
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Post by the light works on Jan 13, 2013 15:31:58 GMT
there is a strategic element to battlefield communications that relates to the possibility of enemy interception. do you want your enemy to know you are calling for reinforcements? do you want your enemy to THINK you are calling for reinforcements? do you want your reinforcements to sneak up and decimate the enemy?
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 13, 2013 15:37:34 GMT
there is a strategic element to battlefield communications that relates to the possibility of enemy interception. do you want your enemy to know you are calling for reinforcements? do you want your enemy to THINK you are calling for reinforcements? do you want your reinforcements to sneak up and decimate the enemy? and of course there are encoded transmissions, that is you don't want your enemy to know what you intend when you intend to do it who is involved or where their involvement will take place. SURPRISE  |
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, I have never said that this was the way it was done but possibly the way it could have been done. I don't believe these people were as unintelligent as history makes them out to be. But you continue on your own quest, I'll continue to explore possibilities you are not willing to 
. You have a good one ;D
