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Post by c64 on Jan 5, 2013 3:05:57 GMT
Riiiight... Because a 3 puff of smoke signal, gets all mixed up and you can't tell there were ever 3 puffs of smoke..... Oh wait, but you CAN, because FIRST you received a signal to be watchful for further signals, so you noticed the 3 separate puffs before they got all mixed up. Read the links for how sending simple signals works. The problem is that you can't stop the smoke or collect the smoke for long - not without a hot air balloon sized blanket! You can't really control the size of the smoke. And the problem is that while it works on short distances looking at the base of the smoke column, the smoke and the gaps mix up further up in the part you see over large distances. Then you can't tell if someone fiddles with the smoke using a blanket or if wind action does that. If you could generate reliable smoke signals using a blanket, at least some armies around the world would have had make use of this! Instead, coloured smoke from several fire sources are used. Much more convenient to set up and a lot more reliable!
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Post by the light works on Jan 5, 2013 6:47:30 GMT
now you seem to be gatting confused between the kind of fire a white man makes and the kind of fire an indian makes. if you're not making a white man fire, you CAN control the size of the smoke column. you also still seem to be stuck on the idea that you have to send complex messages at high baud rates.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 5, 2013 9:53:25 GMT
According to our friends at wiki smoke signals are one of the oldest forms of communication. they were used by the Chinese on their great Wall and the Greeks. ["Polybius, a Greek historian, came up with a more complex system of alphabetical smoke signals around 150 BC. He invented a system of converting Greek alphabetic characters into numeric characters. It was devised to enable messages to be easily signaled by holding sets of torches in pairs. This idea, known as the "Polybius square", also lends itself to cryptography and steganography. This cryptographic concept has been used with Japanese Hiragana and the Germans in the later years of the First World War."] This is in the article on smoke signals so presumably the same could be achieved by two signal fires set to smoke. Another article says with reference to the North American Indian that they used Smoke signals on a regular basis. It says that three signals remain today ["One puff of smoke sent into the air was believed to signal attention. Two puffs meant all's well or everything is okay. Three puffs signals either danger, call for help, or simply just trouble. The smoke is made by putting green branches or grass into the fire. Blankets are used to control the smoke puffs. Important events were also marked by smoke signals like war, death, or marriage. There were light and heavy signals, each meaning separate things. One meant good, the other meant bad. "] library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00285/pages/smokesignals.htmlIt appears to me at least, that there must have been a level of sophistication in the signalling system and an attendant code to it. It may have taken half a day to send a message, beats walking, especially if the message was intended for multiple recipients.
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Post by the light works on Jan 5, 2013 13:17:19 GMT
According to our friends at wiki smoke signals are one of the oldest forms of communication. they were used by the Chinese on their great Wall and the Greeks. ["Polybius, a Greek historian, came up with a more complex system of alphabetical smoke signals around 150 BC. He invented a system of converting Greek alphabetic characters into numeric characters. It was devised to enable messages to be easily signaled by holding sets of torches in pairs. This idea, known as the "Polybius square", also lends itself to cryptography and steganography. This cryptographic concept has been used with Japanese Hiragana and the Germans in the later years of the First World War."] This is in the article on smoke signals so presumably the same could be achieved by two signal fires set to smoke. Another article says with reference to the North American Indian that they used Smoke signals on a regular basis. It says that three signals remain today ["One puff of smoke sent into the air was believed to signal attention. Two puffs meant all's well or everything is okay. Three puffs signals either danger, call for help, or simply just trouble. The smoke is made by putting green branches or grass into the fire. Blankets are used to control the smoke puffs. Important events were also marked by smoke signals like war, death, or marriage. There were light and heavy signals, each meaning separate things. One meant good, the other meant bad. "] library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00285/pages/smokesignals.htmlIt appears to me at least, that there must have been a level of sophistication in the signalling system and an attendant code to it. It may have taken half a day to send a message, beats walking, especially if the message was intended for multiple recipients. but the point is, the level of detail of the smoke signal was based on broad concepts, not the highly detailed messages shown in cartoons. the native americans were not doing the equivalent of twitter. they were doing a slower version of the horn signals that a logging operation uses.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 5, 2013 14:11:32 GMT
According to our friends at wiki smoke signals are one of the oldest forms of communication. they were used by the Chinese on their great Wall and the Greeks. ["Polybius, a Greek historian, came up with a more complex system of alphabetical smoke signals around 150 BC. He invented a system of converting Greek alphabetic characters into numeric characters. It was devised to enable messages to be easily signaled by holding sets of torches in pairs. This idea, known as the "Polybius square", also lends itself to cryptography and steganography. This cryptographic concept has been used with Japanese Hiragana and the Germans in the later years of the First World War."] This is in the article on smoke signals so presumably the same could be achieved by two signal fires set to smoke. Another article says with reference to the North American Indian that they used Smoke signals on a regular basis. It says that three signals remain today ["One puff of smoke sent into the air was believed to signal attention. Two puffs meant all's well or everything is okay. Three puffs signals either danger, call for help, or simply just trouble. The smoke is made by putting green branches or grass into the fire. Blankets are used to control the smoke puffs. Important events were also marked by smoke signals like war, death, or marriage. There were light and heavy signals, each meaning separate things. One meant good, the other meant bad. "] library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00285/pages/smokesignals.htmlIt appears to me at least, that there must have been a level of sophistication in the signalling system and an attendant code to it. It may have taken half a day to send a message, beats walking, especially if the message was intended for multiple recipients. but the point is, the level of detail of the smoke signal was based on broad concepts, not the highly detailed messages shown in cartoons. the native americans were not doing the equivalent of twitter. they were doing a slower version of the horn signals that a logging operation uses. Well so far your the only one talking baud rates and twitter, both modern concepts hardly dreamed of 30 years ago. But there again perhaps I have an over-active imagination backed up by signal flags and messages sent via an Addis lamp. Getting a Morse code practice kit ffor Xmas which included two stations hooked together by wires they buzzed as the other stations key was pressed ;D you have a good one
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Post by the light works on Jan 5, 2013 15:01:03 GMT
but the point is, the level of detail of the smoke signal was based on broad concepts, not the highly detailed messages shown in cartoons. the native americans were not doing the equivalent of twitter. they were doing a slower version of the horn signals that a logging operation uses. Well so far your the only one talking baud rates and twitter, both modern concepts hardly dreamed of 30 years ago. But there again perhaps I have an over-active imagination backed up by signal flags and messages sent via an Addis lamp. Getting a Morse code practice kit ffor Xmas which included two stations hooked together by wires they buzzed as the other stations key was pressed ;D you have a good one yes, but those are terms used by the modern audience, and in explaining concepts it is important to use terminology that your audience understands. in thinking of smoke signals, think more on the level of "one if by land, two if by sea"
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Post by c64 on Jan 5, 2013 18:51:24 GMT
According to our friends at wiki smoke signals are one of the oldest forms of communication. they were used by the Chinese on their great Wall and the Greeks. ["Polybius, a Greek historian, came up with a more complex system of alphabetical smoke signals around 150 BC. He invented a system of converting Greek alphabetic characters into numeric characters. It was devised to enable messages to be easily signaled by holding sets of torches in pairs. This idea, known as the "Polybius square", also lends itself to cryptography and steganography. This cryptographic concept has been used with Japanese Hiragana and the Germans in the later years of the First World War."] This is in the article on smoke signals so presumably the same could be achieved by two signal fires set to smoke. Another article says with reference to the North American Indian that they used Smoke signals on a regular basis. It says that three signals remain today ["One puff of smoke sent into the air was believed to signal attention. Two puffs meant all's well or everything is okay. Three puffs signals either danger, call for help, or simply just trouble. The smoke is made by putting green branches or grass into the fire. Blankets are used to control the smoke puffs. Important events were also marked by smoke signals like war, death, or marriage. There were light and heavy signals, each meaning separate things. One meant good, the other meant bad. "] library.thinkquest.org/08aug/00285/pages/smokesignals.htmlIt appears to me at least, that there must have been a level of sophistication in the signalling system and an attendant code to it. It may have taken half a day to send a message, beats walking, especially if the message was intended for multiple recipients. On the great wall, there were observation posts looking for the Mongol. When they had spotted an attack, they had light their fire. When the smoke (day) or shine (night) was spotted by another observation post, they had light their own fire. Until an observation post which houses soldiers spots the fire and sends the soldiers into the direction of the fire. That was all, as simple as it can get. This idea was picked up in the Prussic Reich but they used masts with movable bars on them to convey real letters. This was the first long distance signalling for free non-predetermined messages.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 6, 2013 4:45:18 GMT
Well so far your the only one talking baud rates and twitter, both modern concepts hardly dreamed of 30 years ago. But there again perhaps I have an over-active imagination backed up by signal flags and messages sent via an Addis lamp. Getting a Morse code practice kit ffor Xmas which included two stations hooked together by wires they buzzed as the other stations key was pressed ;D you have a good one yes, but those are terms used by the modern audience, and in explaining concepts it is important to use terminology that your audience understands. in thinking of smoke signals, think more on the level of "one if by land, two if by sea" You can dumb the idea down as much as you like, you are talking about your first nations people. They had hundreds if not thousands of years to perfect the idea, to think they never got past "one by land two by sea". who would have figured c64 yeah the Prussians' must have thought that Greek guy was a genius.
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Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2013 6:14:41 GMT
yes, but those are terms used by the modern audience, and in explaining concepts it is important to use terminology that your audience understands. in thinking of smoke signals, think more on the level of "one if by land, two if by sea" You can dumb the idea down as much as you like, you are talking about your first nations people. They had hundreds if not thousands of years to perfect the idea, to think they never got past "one by land two by sea". who would have figured c64 yeah the Prussians' must have thought that Greek guy was a genius. now YOU'RE assuming they used them like twitter. Remember the "first nations" people didn't feel the NEED for constant complication. keep in mind the one of the tribes (I think it was the Lakota, but it has been 22 years since that class) didn't bother to make a written language until it became politically important; then developed it in a matter of days.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 6, 2013 11:08:23 GMT
TLW}...- it's an assumption of understanding of the benefits of simplicity.
Thinking out loud, Ya think Maybe them old people knew or even invented the KISS principal long before we did?... (Keep It Simple Stupid...)
I say that with all honesty, 'cos I often think we dont give 'em enough credit for their knowledge.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 6, 2013 12:24:34 GMT
You can dumb the idea down as much as you like, you are talking about your first nations people. They had hundreds if not thousands of years to perfect the idea, to think they never got past "one by land two by sea". who would have figured c64 yeah the Prussians' must have thought that Greek guy was a genius. now YOU'RE assuming they used them like twitter. Remember the "first nations" people didn't feel the NEED for constant complication. keep in mind the one of the tribes (I think it was the Lakota, but it has been 22 years since that class) didn't bother to make a written language until it became politically important; then developed it in a matter of days. Interesting well you are the only one fixated on twitter, developed in 2006 and described as 40% senseless babel 38% conversation...... Its wandering off topic as it has as much to do with smoke signals as it has to do with messages received by nuclear submarines on patrol. Perhaps we should discuss my encoding messages using matrices (nah much to boring) as we wait for moderation to move us . Point is the first peoples of North America had thousands of years to work on a signalling system which you credit them with a yes or no or a choice of two. Hint look up Morse code it has dits space dah's, lets see that's a short puff no smoke and a long puff not unlike myself walking up a hill How their code was formatted is unknown to me as in how they conveyed the message "wedding Thursday all invited bring your own hooch(BYOH)".
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 6, 2013 12:38:59 GMT
.... or was it just a "We need to talk please come" pre-arranged signal to tell the other tribe to send someone over when the full message could be relayed person-to-person?....
How would you know your next door neighbour wanted to talk to you without any other form of (electronic) communication until they either come see you or waive a hand over the fence?....(Shout hello, etc...)
Perhaps the Smoke signal can be used as a "We need to talk", especially if you dont know which direction your neighbour has gone today?.... The smoke says "Need to talk" and ALSO hands out a useful reference as to where you need to go to do that talking?....
If you are used to a simple pre-arranged "have a look about at Mid-Day" time scale, at Mid Day you send someone to a good vantage point and look for signals.... sounds to me like a quite good way of keeping in contact with your neighbours if you ask me?..... especially if you are not always sure of where they may be today?....
And If I can work that out, who KNOWS what they could work out as well?....
And as an example, the first communication between two remote computers at the start of any data exchange is known as "Handshake", its the "We need to talk" request and the "OK Open for Coms" electronic way of checking you are talking to the right person..... and that they have the time to talk...
As I press "Post" on this message, I will get a small box at the bottom of my screen saying "Waiting for.........." THAT is a handshake.....?....
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 6, 2013 13:13:14 GMT
.... or was it just a "We need to talk please come" pre-arranged signal to tell the other tribe to send someone over when the full message could be relayed person-to-person?.... How would you know your next door neighbour wanted to talk to you without any other form of (electronic) communication until they either come see you or waive a hand over the fence?....(Shout hello, etc...) Perhaps the Smoke signal can be used as a "We need to talk", especially if you dont know which direction your neighbour has gone today?.... The smoke says "Need to talk" and ALSO hands out a useful reference as to where you need to go to do that talking?.... If you are used to a simple pre-arranged "have a look about at Mid-Day" time scale, at Mid Day you send someone to a good vantage point and look for signals.... sounds to me like a quite good way of keeping in contact with your neighbours if you ask me?..... especially if you are not always sure of where they may be today?.... And If I can work that out, who KNOWS what they could work out as well?.... And as an example, the first communication between two remote computers at the start of any data exchange is known as "Handshake", its the "We need to talk" request and the "OK Open for Coms" electronic way of checking you are talking to the right person..... and that they have the time to talk... As I press "Post" on this message, I will get a small box at the bottom of my screen saying "Waiting for.........." THAT is a handshake.....?.... From a previous post quoting a source. three messages appear to have survived. A short puff of smoke says attention two short puffs everything is ok three short puffs trouble/help/danger. Basically this sets up the message to follow. one puff one puff reply two puffs one puff reply then the wedding message follows encoded in their own code if you will the following message characters are set by the opening sequence for interpretation.
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Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2013 15:45:47 GMT
when I was a kid, we communicated basic things across the 15 acres I grew up on with simple audible signals.
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Post by c64 on Jan 6, 2013 21:04:50 GMT
one puff one puff reply two puffs one puff reply then the wedding message follows encoded in their own code if you will the following message characters are set by the opening sequence for interpretation. The problem is how do you know that you didn't miss a puff? And how do you know what is supposed to be a long puff or break without checking the internet for ambient conditions to find out how fast the smoke rises?
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 6, 2013 21:28:49 GMT
The problem is how do you know that you didn't miss a puff? And how do you know what is supposed to be a long puff or break without checking the internet for ambient conditions to find out how fast the smoke rises? Check Sum?
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Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2013 22:44:02 GMT
one puff one puff reply two puffs one puff reply then the wedding message follows encoded in their own code if you will the following message characters are set by the opening sequence for interpretation. The problem is how do you know that you didn't miss a puff? And how do you know what is supposed to be a long puff or break without checking the internet for ambient conditions to find out how fast the smoke rises? how do you know how many blinks the trouble code on your electronic widget is?
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 7, 2013 3:42:33 GMT
one puff one puff reply two puffs one puff reply then the wedding message follows encoded in their own code if you will the following message characters are set by the opening sequence for interpretation. The problem is how do you know that you didn't miss a puff? And how do you know what is supposed to be a long puff or break without checking the internet for ambient conditions to find out how fast the smoke rises? Moving right along
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 7, 2013 13:47:03 GMT
when I was a kid, we communicated basic things across the 15 acres I grew up on with simple audible signals. The Royal Navy has been using a bosun's call to communicate orders for a long time the US Navy which lets face it had its beginnings based on the same systems and traditions followed on with a whistle(?). Building sites, dog-men signalled to the crane operators by hand signals and whistles up to the advent of hand held two way radios. All these people had a coded system that they learned to convey complex messages. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_dutyThis is in all likely hood the most famous flag signal in Royal Navy History, without the legend underneath I simply would see flags. Like wise smoke signals, the encoding is presumably lost apart from 3 fragments. For those interested, as it is off topic. I did find an interesting, to me at least, web site that described the mathematical abilities of the American Indian (North and South) It appears the Myans came up with the modern use of of zero in or around the year 0 which if I recall was at least a millennium before Europe. They had number systems of base 20,10,8,4 and binary. www.pps.k12.or.us/depts-c/mc-me/be-ai-ma.pdf
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2013 15:25:30 GMT
rather than persist in your quest to say something that is different from what anyone else has said, why don't you provide us some sort of documentation that implies native American smoke signals were NOT used for rapid communication of basic messages.
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