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Post by silverdragon on Jan 11, 2013 10:48:14 GMT
I am hearing through some sources that Drifting a corner is **Faster**...
I call BS on that.
(This is of course "Closed track" racing and not a live traffic experiment.)
So the question is, two identical cars, one to drift, the other to get a grip, who gets the faster times....
I also suggest a race of over a certain reasonable distance so that choice of tyres is important... last the course distance on one set or go for speed and have to change tyres at least once.
I also suggest that after the initial comparison, of Race driver in Touring car against a Drift driver, on two or three corners as a visual demonstration, and initial single corner timing, the cars are allowed to set up for that longer race with whatever they feel necessary, suspension and gearbox wise, but NO engine upgrades or changes will be allowed....
This is to be technique testing not maximum horsepower they can get testing?...
My expected result is pure touring car driver to win by a substantial margin...........
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Post by rory on Jan 11, 2013 14:33:13 GMT
I bet if the track is gravel or ice the drifter will win.
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Post by PK on Jan 11, 2013 16:19:45 GMT
I agree. If you've got a surface where you've got to slow considerably to make the turn without sliding, then it only make sense that drifting (aka, sliding) would be faster.
On a dry asphalt track, it's just for show.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 13, 2013 9:31:06 GMT
I was thinking on the dry asphalt version of this......
However, Ice?... I still go for Slow in Fast Out on Ice.
"Loose" surfaces, yes, it can be a bit more like piloting a boat on some corners, and even straight-ish parts, but I still retain the thinking, on solid surfaces, even Ice, Slow in fast out....
ESPECIALLY ice, 'cos you never know how deep it is under the ice?....
But back to Dry Asphalt.....
In my thinking, someone must have done the maths already, 'cos F1 (and Indie-car)is all downforce, and they are the masters of lap times without question....
(This is a race track like Silverstone or Laguna Seca not a American Oval thing)
Touring car racing (race tuned versions of road cars) you dont see THEM "Drift" in a serious race much?.. ok, so saying that, on the exit of a curve you do get some tramping under acceleration, but thats the exit, not all round the curved bits....
They too are all about Downforce and getting a grip....
I would suggest the Green Hell Nurburgring, but thats 10 to 15 mins of pure concentration (Dependant on level of skill) and it just TOO tricky for amateurs...
My suggestion is get a grip vs drift....
Is it better to load up with downforce and grip that asphalt or loose the grip and slide sideways with yer backside afire?....
I dont think one drifter would last the whole lap of Nurburgring .
(although, perhaps seeing one park in the scenery would be fun?...)
Am I biased in any way?...
I am trying NOT to be...
I have seen burnouts to warm tyres, I accept....
I have seen celebratory doughnuts after the race has finished....
But I see Top Gear doing "Sideways" with Jeremy grinning like the Cheshire cat saying "If this car was a food it would be a vindaloo curry" and I wanna slap the sense into him and the smile of his face, 'cos lets be honest, who in there right mind trashes a £20,000 set of tyres for the Bugatti Veyron (Latest estimate £23,500 a "set") on a daily basis when all they do is work and home?....
Ok, so extreme, but a couple of grand is not that extreme when replacing tyres.. I have seen many a good sports car in my time, they dont corner with piles of smoke from the rear and tyres melting.... not in "normal" use, and not even in the track experience I have done, so I suggest what I know must be along the lines of expected normality that get a grip is the fastest way round a track?....
Am I wrong?.... let me know....
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Post by privatepaddy on Jan 13, 2013 14:42:27 GMT
I always thought the best test for man and machine was rally driving. I know some people will agree and some won't. Some people like to watch people go round and round in circles, some people like to watch a kinda road circuit with tyre barriers in case something goes wrong.... I liked rally driving  you won't find me in any record books, they don't allow any type 1's to race or fly kinda limits fun. I liked to rally drive me the car and the road. couldn't have been that bad or I wouldn't have been here to annoy you all  |
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Post by c64 on Jan 14, 2013 1:17:10 GMT
It depends!
Drifting eats up a lot of energy. Drifting slows you down. You can enter a turn a lot faster if you intent to drift but your exit of the turn is a lot slower. While not drifting, you can even accelerate during the turn. Drifting makes you slower instead of faster.
But there are a lot of exceptions:
Gravel, dirt, snow or mud, here you donÄt have any significant amount of grip to handle the turn fast anyway. By drifting, you save time entering the turn, can take the turn tighter or even faster in general by propelling dirt/gravel/snow/whatever like a rocket to get more g's for the turn.
Then there are the brakes. When drifting, you can enter a turn a lot faster so you don't need to brake that hard. If you need to safe wear on your brakes to be able to finish the race, drifting is good!
And until the 70s, the suspensions of cars was real bad, you couldn't take hard turns pretty quickly anyway and when drifting you still have the advance of entering the turn faster and leave it with the speed as if you didn't drift.
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Post by the light works on Jan 14, 2013 15:19:32 GMT
It all boils down to a comparison between horsepower and grip.
to massively oversimplify it; if you have more grip than horsepower, then you want to grip the corner. if you have more horsepower than grip, you want to allow it to kick out, rally style.
keep in mind - this is completely off the topic of the show drifting style that has become popular of late. that style is best for looks and entertainment; not for speed.
while I don't think loose road surface adds much reaction mass, the basic principle is still the same - if 50% of your effort is expended throwing the road surface behind you, then the more surface you are throwing, the more effort is still being used to push you where you want to go.
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Post by c64 on Jan 14, 2013 17:03:13 GMT
while I don't think loose road surface adds much reaction mass, the basic principle is still the same - if 50% of your effort is expended throwing the road surface behind you, then the more surface you are throwing, the more effort is still being used to push you where you want to go. It's not so much using the dirt as a reaction mass than the act of digging it out of the ground which also causes a lot of counter-forces. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 14, 2013 17:15:52 GMT
it becomes fluid dynamics at that point. a rather in-depth subject for the degree of redneckness that most of our US motorsports that involve it appear to present.
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Post by srracing on Jan 17, 2013 3:43:04 GMT
I thought this was milked to death in the prior forums. "Drifting" is NEVER the fastest way around any dry asphalt/concrete track. It is only for style points in "Drifting". That being said, you would be quite suprised to look at the data acquisition and see how much sliding/drifting? a F1, IRL or Champcar etc. is really doing. This is not to be confused with oversteer. To a spectator it looks like they are stuck down pretty well but in fact are sliding 4 wheels several feet in a fast corner. But NOT "drifting". When I make a right turn in a racing car I always have my steering wheel turned some degree to the right. In drifting you only start turning right. You finish the turn with wheel turned left. If you have to do that in a racing car, you are doing something wrong...
On a wet, or dirt track etc. some of the comments above are correct as to changing the fastest way around the track.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 17, 2013 9:40:17 GMT
I thought Rally driving was the extreme limit of "Fun", Me, the Co-Driver (and instructor in some places) and an open road....
Then I did Touring car racing.... Mixed class ....
I was in a VW at that time, and behind be was a BMW, to the left side a Vauxhall.
On the second bend, a left hand bend, the car to the left was actually leaning n me, the car behind was pushing me, and at that point, I realised Touring car racing is a Full Contact sport....
Not the same as Rally driving?....
So a few laps later, I am side by side with another vehicle down the Hangar Straight... I know my brakes are good, but HOW good?... are his any better?... who will brake first?... will braking late send me off in a straight line?....
I can feel the head rush as adrenalin takes over, I cant quite see his face, I dont know who he is, but I bet the driver alongside like me has a grin from ear to ear, we are "Racing", this may not be for fist place, it doesnt matter as we may swap places several times on the next lap, but right here, right now, who "Wins" this corner has bragging rights .... its a "This moment" thing, you have to be there to know?....
Its door handle to door handle, the anticipation alone has me at the edge of sensible, I just KNOW I am going to get an adrenalin rush bigger than I have ever experienced as I brake late and have to hang on for life its self round Stowe, and get the jump onto the short straight into Vale, otherwise, if I go wide, he will slingshot round me........
I am at the extreme limit of my own abilities here.
I want to stay on the track....
It was exactly the same except we had swapped sides for the next few laps.
When the chequered flag goes and we all shoot off into the Pits, I climb out, sit on the floor, and stay there until I stop shaking.....
I have never been so scared in the whole of my life....
Yet the grin I am wearing and the words I am saying say it all ...
"Can I go again?... "
I caught up with that driver shortly after, "That was fun, I enjoyed that, it was good to race you", and other pleasantries, that was over 20 years ago, we still keep in touch....
(Just for comparison, my current road car can post faster lap times than the race-tuned VW I was in that day....)
Shortly after that, I was given a Formulae Third "Open wheel" single seater to play with.
That scared the crud out of me so badly, after 5 laps of a circuit I knew intimately already, I handed it back with "Thanks, but NO thanks...."
I had found my Limit.
SR, It was discussed in the old forums, I re-started it here, because the old forums have gone, and "Some people" are saying Drifting has "Progressed".......
I agree totally with you on this, I DONT (Wouldn't) Drift on purpose, but I want to catch other peoples opinions?....
Even on Loose surfaces, I drive in a way where I am looking for Maximum traction, I may slide sideways on corners, but as soon as I find that traction, I am gripping it?...
Therefore, Corners on the loose are for me NOT drifting, as I am looking for traction, not looking to loose traction?.....
Is that enough of a difference do you think?.... they way you approach a corner?.... (Mentally...)...
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Post by srracing on Jan 21, 2013 2:24:38 GMT
Is that enough of a difference do you think?.... they way you approach a corner?.... (Mentally...)... Yep. No drifting... On purpose. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2013 3:33:36 GMT
I think there you have captured the essence of the difference between experiencing drift in corners and drifting in corners. when experiencing drift, you are looking for traction. when you are drifting, you are hiding from it.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 21, 2013 7:49:15 GMT
So playing devils advocate, are you not still drifting if your going sideways?...
Am I arguing with myself here?.. I think I maybe?...
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2013 14:58:49 GMT
So playing devils advocate, are you not still drifting if your going sideways?... Am I arguing with myself here?.. I think I maybe?... It used to be if you were not holding 100% to your line, you were drifting. now drifting has been reapplied through the miracle of modern teenagerism to be a definite term for doing it on purpose. if you recall, we had a medium large debate at the old site about definitions when some people used the original usage while others were using the new usage. |
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Post by srracing on Jan 21, 2013 16:07:13 GMT
So playing devils advocate, are you not still drifting if your going sideways?... IMO: If you are going fast, you are ALWAYS sliding in a corner. (A four wheel slide) However, your steering wheel is always turned to the direction of the corner. When drifting you oversteer the corner and have to turn the opposite direction of the corner to come back straight after the drift. Drifting is just maximizing oversteer while maintaining control. Using power to the rear wheels and often the handbrakes they intentionally lose traction. So, there is no confusing of the two unless you just have a poor handling oversteering race car. (or on dirt, etc.) I have not heard the term drifting used in wheel to wheel racing. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2013 16:20:35 GMT
I'm old. what is now drifting, used to be a power slide.
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Post by watcher56 on Jan 21, 2013 17:10:53 GMT
I'm old. what is now drifting, used to be a power slide. Same here. I do miss rear wheel drive....... |
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2013 17:25:25 GMT
I don't - all my vehicles are RWD. what I miss is having something light enough to throw around like that.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 22, 2013 6:42:47 GMT
You may in what YOU race SR, I never got to that level?... OK, I "slid" in some corners slightly on even the best surface, but as an Ex-Bike racer, that isnt good, so I did the slow-in-fast-out and definitely tried NOT to slide, and only in small amounts until I could catch it?... Coming OUT of the corner, well that was different... The class I was racing in was mostly Front wheel drive, ... and yes, if you are thinking you cant "Drift" FWD, you are sort of right, you cant "Power" out of a corner with the back end trying to overtake the front...Powerslide is only available in RWD But when my Rally instructor showed me the Swedish Flick "Handbrake" thing on loose surfaces, you can take that and let centrifugal force swing the back a bit... the rear wheels on FWD are just there to keep the back bumper from dragging on the ground?.... Powerslide in RWD, yes, there is the difference ... Combine the two and get four wheel drive?.... I tried that one time and that was definitely different, to have the back end trying to powerslide and have the front end pulling in a slightly different direction gave me a different set of cornering abilities altogether, and getting used to using those was a different race........ However, getting a LITTLE loose as you exit a corner "Under control", pedantically I would argue that this may come down to the angle of slide?... if its up to an estimate of 10% from straight, thats powerslide, over 10% its drift?... and if I was ever racing, I would already be doing something to correct that?... That 10% is up for discussion.... TLW, you can throw larger vehicles around "Like that", you just need a little extra space?.... I have had "larger Vehicles" sideways, including at one time early in my career a 30 seat Minibus complete with passengers on a very icy corner... they all thought it was fun... I was sh-1-t-ing myself?.... I have had a 12 tonner completely sideways "powersliding" in the rain, trying to avoid some tw--  --onker who tried entering the Motorway by running up the Emergency lane and overtaking me on the inside... then cutting me up.... how I didnt hit someone else escapes me.... next time that happens, I MUST try to keep my eyes open, to see what goes on, eh?... ;D |
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you won't find me in any record books, they don't allow any type 1's to race or fly kinda limits fun. I liked to rally drive me the car and the road. couldn't have been that bad or I wouldn't have been here to annoy you all 
--onker who tried entering the Motorway by running up the Emergency lane and overtaking me on the inside... then cutting me up.... how I didnt hit someone else escapes me.... next time that happens, I MUST try to keep my eyes open,