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Post by the light works on Jan 22, 2013 6:54:25 GMT
If I ever get the chance to go to a DPSST (Department of Public Safety Standards and Training, or words to that effect) driving course, you KNOW I'm going to be asking to put a fire engine sideways on their skidpad. but besides that, considering it takes dicey traction or all 360 horses with their tails on fire or both to exceed my coefficient of friction, and no guarantee which end will break loose - I ain't gonna go out rallying the backroads like I did in my Nissan.
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Post by the light works on Jan 22, 2013 6:56:57 GMT
and if I were to have let my old engine kick out, hypothetically speaking, it would have used up all the asphalt on a two lane road just getting that 10% powerslide angle. and again, all the ponies at BOT.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 22, 2013 7:34:38 GMT
Skid Pan training....
I was offered that back in the late 80's early 90's, and jumped at the chance....
To start, having a car go sideways?...under controlled conditions, as in the instructor is controlling the skid, the most fun you can have on Tarmac.
Getting a BIGGER vehicle sideways?... PRICELESS.....
I had a double decker out at the end of that day, and it gave me one of the biggest adrenalin buzzes you can ever have...........
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Post by the light works on Jan 22, 2013 15:30:04 GMT
on the other side of the coin, our 3 newest rigs have electronic stability control; and it is about as nervous a passenger as yer mother. it's dreadfully annoying when you have a gap to get on the highway, and lay on the throttle to make a good entry, and the ESP says "the he** you will, that's too much lateral" and dumps your boost.
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Post by c64 on Jan 22, 2013 20:41:35 GMT
The class I was racing in was mostly Front wheel drive, ... and yes, if you are thinking you cant "Drift" FWD, you are sort of right, you cant "Power" out of a corner with the back end trying to overtake the front...Powerslide is only available in RWD I've raced AWD. Here, you can have both effects depending on what you do but in general you are fastest when the car is "pushing" over all wheels, over- and under-steering at the same time you could say. The problem is that there is a clear limit. If you come close, you feel the wheels grinding and hear the tear and wear but it doesn't take much to cross the limit and then the car just "slingshots" out of the corner and there is no way to recover until you are far out off the track. But if you do it correctly, you are almost as fast entering the corner as an RWD but faster exiting as RWD or FWD ever could (if your engine is up to it). |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 23, 2013 7:30:00 GMT
Merc(edes) 815 7.5 tonners started with that back a few (1980's) years back, they had a throttle fly-by-wire system that limited the revs you could get, and wouldnt allow full power if you were not (fully) in gear.... that included Clutch depressed?....
Makes for some interesting hill starts when your fully loaded, foot flat to the bumper, and the thing starts rolling BACKWARDS.............
Gotta say (Again ;D) I hate electronic Fly-By-Wire systems that interfere with a driver with no option toi turn the bloody things off?...
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 23, 2013 7:44:33 GMT
Four-Wheel drive on corners certainly gives you a different cornering speed, and ability, its "Different", takes some getting used to as well, and if you have a couple of wings for low level flying, you certainly feel more "Planted" on the corner...
But the sacrifice is all that extra ironworks under the body slows you down on the straight bits......
I have had 4-w-d pass me as if I was walking round the corners, but as soon as I fly out of the corner, I am up alongside looking for a pass....
Swings and Roundabouts?...
I haver found that a good setup with brake disks the size of some wheels gives you the ability to brake late into the corner and get round just before the 4-w-d catches up....
However, on rally stages, give me 4WD every time, the extra grip is just unbelievable, and the weight is an advantage if you get the right suspension setup....
Drift...
I suppose its all down to how you approach the thing...I think (?) I have my "Definitive" answer now...
Tarmac.
If you approach the corner thinking get round as fast as you can allowing a little under-control power-slide "As it happens", then you have corner speed...
If you think "Drift", you have melted tyres, smoke, and a sometimes crowd pleaser, but no gain on corner speed....
Gravel, loose surfaces.
We would rather NOT drift, but "hand-braking" the corner and allowing some power-sliding has been proved to be the fastest way round rally stages.
Anyone care to correct that in any way?.... is it tight enough as it is?... does it sound OK to you?...
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Post by c64 on Jan 23, 2013 13:02:05 GMT
However, on rally stages, give me 4WD every time, the extra grip is just unbelievable, and the weight is an advantage if you get the right suspension setup.... A friend had beaten a Viper with his Audi 100 with AWD Quattro drive. This was quite a show. The Audi always caught up and passed the Viper during the corners and the Viper rocketed past on the straight passages. Unfortunately there were just a few too many corners on the Nürnburgring for the Viper to win. Of course this was a "civilian" race, in a real race where they don't care about replacing half of the car afterwards, it would have been a lot different. |
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Post by c64 on Jan 23, 2013 13:29:22 GMT
Tarmac. If you approach the corner thinking get round as fast as you can allowing a little under-control power-slide "As it happens", then you have corner speed... If you think "Drift", you have melted tyres, smoke, and a sometimes crowd pleaser, but no gain on corner speed.... Gravel, loose surfaces. We would rather NOT drift, but "hand-braking" the corner and allowing some power-sliding has been proved to be the fastest way round rally stages. Anyone care to correct that in any way?.... is it tight enough as it is?... does it sound OK to you?... That's about right. But you need to consider that a rally is different since the distance you drive is usually a lot shorter and you have decent time to change the tires and anything else you might want to change (e.g. brake pads) at the checkpoints. So put on your Sunday's best run-flats and just keep going until the car refuses to move. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2013 15:21:41 GMT
my take: first, "drifting" is never the fastest way around a corner.
however, on a loose surface race, if you attempt to go around the corner without breaking traction, you will have other drivers passing you like you're a spectator with a camera.
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Post by c64 on Jan 23, 2013 16:24:31 GMT
my take: first, "drifting" is never the fastest way around a corner. however, on a loose surface race, if you attempt to go around the corner without breaking traction, you will have other drivers passing you like you're a spectator with a camera. Well, here is a good video of tight corners: As you can see, the "almost 360°" turns are always done drifting or power sliding. For the rest of the turns on paved roads, you can see how slow the drifters become - and sometimes they even stop because they failed doing it correctly. I've driven the roads (not as part of the rally), some corners are impossible for most cars without backing up or power sliding! My ordinary car can drive left turns very tight since the drive shafts allow the wheels to turn to the left really far caused by the pretty odd gearbox configuration. And some left turns I barely managed to drive slow in 1th gear, some right turns were impossible without backing up or leave the track. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2013 17:09:19 GMT
here is one of our more iconic rallies:
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Post by c64 on Jan 23, 2013 17:48:30 GMT
here is one of our more iconic rallies: That's a rally?  Looks more like driving home from work! Seriously, that's just like less than a generic Grand Prix and with the audience next to the race track! And I thought our Rallies are "kindergarten". If you really want to have serious business in a Rally, go into the Czech Republic. They have everything, mud, water, gravel, paved roads, goat tracks and anything you might or might not be able to imagine. They even race right through villages and towns! |
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Post by c64 on Jan 23, 2013 18:07:03 GMT
And this is what the audience is there for to watch:
In case you wonder what happens to the crashed cars, the audience just pushes them back onto the track - and flip them back wheels down when necessary - and then they continue driving. Unless the car refuses to move, then they push it away to clear the track.
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Post by srracing on Jan 24, 2013 3:15:43 GMT
I think if you looked at some D/A with GPS, etc. you might be surprised. You were probably sliding more than you think.. Never wheel to wheel raced a front wheel drive car. Just didn't seem right to me, except in the rain or snow.  |
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Post by the light works on Jan 24, 2013 3:19:18 GMT
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Post by srracing on Jan 24, 2013 3:36:53 GMT
A friend had beaten a Viper with his Audi 100 with AWD Quattro drive. This was quite a show. The Audi always caught up and passed the Viper during the corners and the Viper rocketed past on the straight passages. . I have driven some vipers, I am familliar with the Audi 100 and the Ring. If what you say is true, the Viper was driven by your grandmother and the Audi by a top tier driver. (and I suspect it was raining or snowing.) We understand the point you are making, but don't accept those facts. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 24, 2013 8:55:35 GMT
Pikes Peak... Have the tarmacked the entire road yet?....
I though the Gravel section was going to be covered by 2012, or in 2012?....
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Post by the light works on Jan 24, 2013 15:00:50 GMT
Pikes Peak... Have the tarmacked the entire road yet?.... I though the Gravel section was going to be covered by 2012, or in 2012?.... wikipedia said they did. |
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Post by c64 on Jan 24, 2013 15:14:52 GMT
A friend had beaten a Viper with his Audi 100 with AWD Quattro drive. This was quite a show. The Audi always caught up and passed the Viper during the corners and the Viper rocketed past on the straight passages. . I have driven some vipers, I am familliar with the Audi 100 and the Ring. If what you say is true, the Viper was driven by your grandmother and the Audi by a top tier driver. (and I suspect it was raining or snowing.) We understand the point you are making, but don't accept those facts. The Audi driver was sort of professional and it was no official race where nobody wants to risk unnecessary damage or wear. |
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Looks more like driving home from work!
