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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2013 17:22:28 GMT
true - when you have two items of technology that doesn't exist, it is hard to have a reference point to start from.
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Post by srmarti on Feb 5, 2013 21:32:23 GMT
I'd pay special attention to the helmets. There have been several excuses I've seen over the years for why Stormtroopers couldn't hit their targets, and one of them was that the visors on the helmets were so poorly designed as to restrict range of vision - specifically, peripheral vision. I think the real reason is the same for all movies with lots of gunfire. If the marksmanship was really good, the movie would be over too soon. Lots of misses are necessary to have action scenes without destroying the plot. |
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Post by rmc on Feb 6, 2013 2:40:16 GMT
Empire Strikes Back: Ton Ton used as temporary hypothermia and frost bite control...Yeah, after reviewing that part of the film again, I see that Han only intended Luke to stay 'inside' the ton ton for as long as it took Han to 'assemble the shelter' BUT, even still, getting good and damp with "ton ton" blood and guts couldn't be too easily remedied by simply jumping into some sort of 'shelter' moments later, could it? One would need to strip down completely and then don dry clothing, and there was no other clothing - was there? And, a disassembled shelter would hardly have heaters (Although, this is Star Wars -- could a lightsaber function as a heater inside some small shelter, I wonder? Or, did Han bring along some sort of heater for the shelter as part of the 'shelter pack'??) Anyway, I wonder what truly happens to a fellow who is apparently suffering from hypothermia, and is stuffed inside a dead horse-like creature for a time while out in sub zero (f) weather as his buddy builds a prefabricated shelter (whether it has a heater or not)? Would a person even fit well enough inside the creature, even if the horse thing were totally gutted?? Does the gooey, warm-for-the-moment guts help, or ultimately hurt his chances...(dampness issue mentioned earlier) www.bitrebels.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/Wedding-Cake-Star-Wars-3.jpgNow, how to test this without chopping up a perfectly good horse-like creature....? Getting a perfectly bad horse-like creature??
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Post by srmarti on Feb 6, 2013 3:32:08 GMT
Pretty good myth, but seems tough to test.
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Post by the light works on Feb 6, 2013 5:41:09 GMT
we can assume that since this was a cold planet survival shelter, it would have had heating equipment of some kind. that reduced the issue to how rapidly the carcass would lose temperature. perhaps a hunter among us could relate their experiences with the cooling rates of creatures that size.
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Post by ironhold on Feb 6, 2013 13:52:57 GMT
I seem to recall hearing that the scene was loosely based on some sort of real-life survival technique, the "only use when it's dire" kind.
The idea is that by being inside the animal, the person would be protected from the wind and have at least a thin layer of insulation against the cold.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 6, 2013 21:42:37 GMT
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's heard of the 'Tauntaun-myth' being used in real life in some form. I *think* I ran across this when reading about attempts to find the North-West passage in the 1800's. Off the top of my head the technique was used to stave off hypothermia in an injured sailor long enough for his comrades to get him to shelter - I also seem to recall that it worked.
Testing on MB might not be as difficult as it seems. The basic idea, as I said above, is basically that it helps keep the victims body temperature stable for a short period, or at least slows down heat loss long enough to build a shelter and use more conventional methods to warm them up.
MB could simply repeat the same basic 'rig' they used for the Titanic special - a ballistics gel body with warm water flowing through it as a stand in for Luke. The Tauntaun could be a ballistic gel body with fur and filled with tubing through which warm water was pumped until about a minute before 'Luke' is placed inside.
The test *could* be run outdoors should they be in Alaska. But it may be more practical to simply use a large and very cold industrial freezer. They'd need to run two tests, one where 'Luke' is kept in the open, and the second test where he is placed in the 'Tauntaun' after a minute or so. They would simply record the time it takes for 'Luke's' body temperature to fall to a critical level.
This set up would not account for wind chill or clothing. But then the idea is that it will slow heat-loss which their testing would show one way or another.
Another scene that *might* be testable comes from SW V. Luke takes out an AT AT by grappling up, slashing open an access panel and throwing a grenade into the machines engine compartment. As soon as he throws his grenade he releases his grapple, and falls to the ground. The scene clearly shows him landing feet first, having dropped something like 20 feet, but sustaining no injury beyond being winded. Even accounting for the fact that he is landing on snow, this seems rather unlikely to me.
Note; At this point Luke is not a Jedi, and therefore should not be able to use any Force powers to help him land without injury.
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Post by rmc on Feb 6, 2013 21:47:13 GMT
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who's heard of the 'Tauntaun-myth' being used in real life in some form. I *think* I ran across this when reading about attempts to find the North-West passage in the 1800's. Off the top of my head the technique was used to stave off hypothermia in an injured sailor long enough for his comrades to get him to shelter - I also seem to recall that it worked. Testing on MB might not be as difficult as it seems. The basic idea, as I said above, is basically that it helps keep the victims body temperature stable for a short period, or at least slows down heat loss long enough to build a shelter and use more conventional methods to warm them up. MB could simply repeat the same basic 'rig' they used for the Titanic special - a ballistics gel body with warm water flowing through it as a stand in for Luke. The Tauntaun could be a ballistic gel body with fur and filled with tubing through which warm water was pumped until about a minute before 'Luke' is placed inside. The test *could* be run outdoors should they be in Alaska. But it may be more practical to simply use a large and very cold industrial freezer. They'd need to run two tests, one where 'Luke' is kept in the open, and the second test where he is placed in the 'Tauntaun' after a minute or so. They would simply record the time it takes for 'Luke's' body temperature to fall to a critical level. This set up would not account for wind chill or clothing. But then the idea is that it will slow heat-loss which their testing would show one way or another. Another scene that *might* be testable comes from SW V. Luke takes out an AT AT by grappling up, slashing open an access panel and throwing a grenade into the machines engine compartment. As soon as he throws his grenade he releases his grapple, and falls to the ground. The scene clearly shows him landing feet first, having dropped something like 20 feet, but sustaining no injury beyond being winded. Even accounting for the fact that he is landing on snow, this seems rather unlikely to me. Note; At this point Luke is not a Jedi, and therefore should not be able to use any Force powers to help him land without injury. Any thoughts on blood and guts induced dampness causing his time in the shelter later to be touchy? No dry clothing to slip into... stuff like that. Also, Luke was mid-hypothermia before being placed into the ton ton. Would that mean he'd need to have a lower than normal internal temp before being placed into the dead ton ton? |
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 6, 2013 21:59:24 GMT
I don't think the dampness of the clothing would be a factor, since by the time Han pulled him out Luke would be undershelter. We also don't know how effective Luke's cold weather clothing was, or if it was waterproof - which is a possibility.
As I said, the idea is that it will keep the victim's temperature stable long enough to get them somewhere they can be warmed up. How Han warms Luke up after the shelter is built is not really part of the myth, nor is something that could be tested as we have no idea what he did beyond building the shelter around the two of them and the dead Tauntaun.
I'd speculate that he kept Luke in the Tauntaun until the inside of the shelter had warned up enough that he could remove him without risking his life.
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 3:13:57 GMT
wind chill is a piece of cake. my wife does wind chill experiments on me (along with korean fan death experiments) every night.
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Post by rmc on Feb 7, 2013 4:40:37 GMT
I'd speculate that he kept Luke in the Tauntaun until the inside of the shelter had warned up enough that he could remove him without risking his life. That's probably the best point worth attempting to replicate and test (or making enough reasonable assumptions to call it replicating) If planet Hoth were particularly cold while Luke and the Tauntaun were both suffering lower body temperatures than normal, due to hypothermia, how long did Han have to build the shelter and heat it up to 'room temperature'? An hour? -- (to be certain there's enough time for both building and heating)? Keeping in mind it is difficult to heat a flimsy shelter against a cold arctic blast --- in our universe, anyway. If it were a typical tent in particularly cold environment, it would likely never be heated to room temp. But, alas, this is Star Wars. So, the shelter could be something other than a tent, since we never actually saw it, and heated in seconds -- and they could have roasted Tauntaun for breakfast too for that matter. Therefore, one has to decide: Are the comparisons going to be with stuff we know about, like tents and Antarctic weather and such. Or, is it just going to be untestable due to such high tech stuff available in Star Wars that we have no business trying to figure it out? Anyway, this is as close to a 'testable' myth I could see from the films. Too much of the film series has that "Star Wars tech" thing going for it to be scrutinized like this, I think. Perhaps using Star Wars as a means for merely looking at this 'myth' scenario, briefly, then jumping over to the original story (the one from our universe)? Not so much to try and disprove anything, but to test it and see how it might work for an Arctic environment like Hoth looks to be. I think the original story was merely in a winter setting somewhere other than the Arctic? |
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Post by User Unavailable on Feb 7, 2013 4:55:27 GMT
Well, if you properly gut the animal and pour or scoop out any blood that pooled inside the carcass, you would actually stay fairly clean and dry when you crawled inside. Often times, just being out of the wind is a vast improvement for your survival.
You could, if shelter was going to be available soon, warm yourself in the fresh gut pile of a large animal. I have, on cold windy days, while gutting deer, stuck my hands into the gut pile to warm them up again, so that I could better feel and control my knife, versus trying to work with numb fingers.
As to the wet clothing (wet from blood), we have water resistant/proof cold weather clothing, so why wouldn't the folks in SW universe?
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Post by Lokifan on Feb 7, 2013 6:12:00 GMT
I think there was a similar but smaller scale scene in a movie called "The Savage Innocents" if I recall correctly:
In the scene, two police are escorting a Eskimo man back to face murder charges. Going across a frozen lake, one of the police falls completely in and the other pulls him out, against the prisoner's advice, as he says that the man is dead already.
Sure enough, the man quickly dies of shock from exposure (in about 30 seconds) and the survivor's hands are basically paralyzed from the cold. The prisoner takes one of the sled dogs, kills it, then shoves the policeman's hands inside, causing them to warm up (rather painfully).
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Post by mrfatso on Feb 7, 2013 12:17:33 GMT
This is just going from the Roleplaying games, but I`m fairly sure that small portable heaters where around, think of the power consumption of a lightsaber, packed into the small handle that they have.
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Post by rmc on Feb 7, 2013 13:48:21 GMT
I used to Bull's Eye womp rats in my T-16 back home(Forgive my French:)... It's not possible to know what is meant by a "T-16" but if we assume (I really hate that word) that the meaning has to do with the fact that Luke was unable to use some sort of automatic targeting system (like a military craft might have) then we get a scenario where Luke is flying some sort of non-military flying machine (for the SW universe) and swoops down to BULL'S EYE (not strafe) something roughly two meters. Perhaps an RAF pilot could demonstrate? Now, what could be a good stand in for a two meter object related to Star Wars that we could shoot. This? goodcostumeideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mickey-mouse-disney-costume.jpg
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Post by ironhold on Feb 7, 2013 15:00:53 GMT
IIRC, the "T-16" was either Luke's Land Speeder (the hover car he's riding in) or some sort of motorcycle.
In that sense, Luke's boast becomes "I used to shoot a two-meter animal from my fast-moving personal vehicle all the time, remember? How much harder could it be to hit that similarly-sized exhaust port?".
If we take it like that, then it would be a question of trying to hit a target at distance using a variety of weapons while riding in a moving vehicle - essentially a revisit of the Mongolian crossbow myth.
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 15:02:50 GMT
I used to Bull's Eye womp rats in my T-16 back home(Forgive my French:)... It's not possible to know what is meant by a "T-16" but if we assume (I really hate that word) that the meaning has to do with the fact that Luke was unable to use some sort of automatic targeting system (like a military craft might have) then we get a scenario where Luke is flying some sort of non-military flying machine (for the SW universe) and swoops down to BULL'S EYE (not strafe) something roughly two meters. Perhaps an RAF pilot could demonstrate? Now, what could be a good stand in for a two meter object related to Star Wars that we could shoot. This? goodcostumeideas.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mickey-mouse-disney-costume.jpg I always presumed the T-16 was his landspeeder. we could review the scene where he is bringing the money form selling it to confirm the model number. |
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Post by rmc on Feb 7, 2013 15:18:06 GMT
Luke Skywalker with T16 Skyhopper... www.google.com/search?hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=2&gs_ri=hp&cp=6&gs_id=3c&xhr=t&q=luke+skywalker&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.b2I&biw=1245&bih=635&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=XsUTUd_sJ8TJrQHqt4GQDw#um=1&hl=en&tbo=d&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=luke+skywalker+with+t16+skyhopper&oq=luke+skywalker+with+t16+skyhopper&gs_l=img.3...2853.10529.0.10818.21.18.1.2.2.0.82.1186.18.18.0...0.0...1c.1.2.img.tgSXewRzvX8&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42080656,d.aWM&fp=2b238750b2b2fd1e&biw=1245&bih=635&imgrc=MaHAnsL0ROB2KM%3A%3BZwW3EWep0xxloM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fimages4.wikia.nocookie.net%252F__cb20081206055339%252Fstarwars%252Fimages%252F8%252F88%252FT16skyhopper_negvv.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fstarwars.wikia.com%252Fwiki%252FT-16_skyhopper%3B1028%3B1300 Turns out someone has put together a lot of 'facts' on the Skyhopper... It DOES have targeting capability, it looks like after all... starwars.wikia.com/wiki/T-16_skyhopper |
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 15:27:26 GMT
ah, the landspeeder was an x-34.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 7, 2013 15:37:22 GMT
I don't think of myself as a Geek, but then someone asks some random Star Trek or (as in this case) Star Wars question and I know the answer, so have to reconsider my Geek status.
A T-16 is an airspeeder, basically the SW equivalent of a Cesna light aircraft*. It has a short body, being three times taller than it is long, and three wings that form an inverted 'Y'. If you watch SWIV Luke can be seen playing with a model of a T-16 when he is sitting and talking to the Droids in the garage - this is before he gets up and starts working on R2. If you look behind Luke when he is working on R2, just before the hologram of Leia appears, you will see the back of Luke's T-16**.
The T-16 uses similar, if less advanced, navigational controls as the X-Wing. Which is why Luke was able to move from an airspeeder to a starfighter without having to go through several months of intense training. The 'Stock' version of the T-16 is unarmed, but can be fitted with a single blaster cannon on a gimble under the cockpit and a simple (but reasonably effective) targeting system. Although civilian craft, T-16's were sometimes used by planetary law enforcement officers and therefore were designed so they could be armed.
Luke's mention of 'bulls eyeing' Womp-rats refers to a game he used to play in his T-16 with friends. One pilot would fly past one of the rats, causing the creature to turn its head towards the aircraft. The second pilot, who was flying further back, then had a clear, if difficult, shot at the side of the rat's head. They used very low powered cannons, which while startling the poor rat would not harm it even if they managed to hit it in the ear.
(*An airspeeder is an atmospheric craft, a Starfighter is designed for space flight and combat although it can also fight inside an atmosphere.)
(**The power converters Luke mentions to his uncle while they are buying the droids are for his T-16. Just prior to the film Luke damaged his airspeeder when flying through Beggars Canyon, something he had the sense not to mention when they were talking about how difficult it would be to navigate in the Death Star trench.)
There, FAR more information about SW than you really wanted and needed.
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