The Star Wars Challenge

I think you misread the premise.

I think he was saying if it only took a minute to assemble the shelter, it was no big deal to leave Luke lying in the snow.

but to drag my department's water rescue team into the fray again; we don't wait until the ambulance is there to fish the patient out of the water. in the water, they are in a condition we refer to as "actively dying" the first priority is to stop them actively dying. the second priority is helping them get better.

Reality check:

The real reason Han made Luke into Tauntaun stuffing was that dramatically, it made sense. It showed the lengths Han was willing to go to to save his friend, and how dire the situation was. It also showed Han to be a very hardcore, inventive individual.

Back to the dramatic timeline:

Han sees Luke. Luke is unresponsive as Han checks his breathing.

Tauntaun dies.

Han makes the judgement call that Luke doesn't have time to wait while setting up the shelter, so it's better to make a Tauntaun overcoat than wait to pitch his supertent.

Luke mumbles as Han cuts the Tauntaun.

Once inserted, Han then starts building the shelter--it looks like he's digging. During all of this, it's evident that Han is struggling with the weather.

I found the clip:

Luke was attacked by a Wampa and knocked out, suspended upside down with his feet in ice. Then he runs out of the cave and into a blizzard where he is walking - and at first running given what he's escaping from before Han find him.

Now we don't know exactly how long Luke is out there, but it is reasonable to assume it has been several hours at least. We know that the already low temperature of the planet plummets to levels that even the native creatures can't survive at night - Han is told this as he sets off. In light of this it is reasonable to assume that when Luke and Han set out earlier they did so at a time of day that gave them several hours grace before night fell - so if there were any problems they had plenty of time to either get back to the base or for someone to run out and pick them up.

We know that Han had time to get back to Echo Base, argue with Leia and offer the services of Chewbacca should she really want to kiss a Wookiee, then work on the Falcon for a while before Leia starts to wonder where Luke is. (And for the Droids to melt Leia's quarters). By the time they realise Luke is missing it is close to nightfall, so close that the Rebels are hesitant to send out a search party even for a well known senior officer.

In this situation Han is likely to be pushing his mount hard so he can cover as much ground as possible before Luke's chances of survival become zero. (In fact 725 to 1 according to R2, which is presumably the odds without survival equipment). It is likely that the Tauntaun died because it was being ridden so hard, rather than just because of the cold.

Han himself has spent the last few hours inside a (relatively) warm base without exerting himself, then been riding on a mount. So unlike Luke or the Tauntaun he was well rested and would be able to survive for longer in those conditions.

As to how long it would take to put up the shelter, that we don't know because we don't get to see the design. Judging from the technical guides it is likely that the shelter itself is self-errecting, and when he last see Han in that scene he is simply setting out pegs to prevent it from being blown away until there is enough snow on it to weigh it down - when we see Han the next morning the small lump beside him may only be the top of the shelter rather than the whole thing, most of it having been buried under snow during the night. (Snow would also help insulate the shelter).

Assuming it was self erecting, then it probably wouldn't take Han more than two or three minutes to put the shelter up . Being placed into the Tauntaun should buy Luke enough time for Han to do this, and to start heating the shelter up and providing emergency care. This is of course speculation, but testing would give an idea as to how much time Han would have bought himself. Before arguing that Han might have been better setting the shelter up straight away, we should recall that his pack - containing the shelter - is with the Tauntaun. So he would have had to move Luke to the Tauntaun's position anyway, which from a survival point of view makes sense rather than pitch the shelter away from the rest of his gear and have to take long trips to recover anything else he needs - especially in a blizzard at night where there is a very good chance he'd get lost.

As a ball park figure, lets say that if the technique buys Luke 4-5 minutes it is plausible. If it buys more than 10 minutes (give or take a minute or two) it should be considered confirmed.

I can better see the differences in exposure now that you both point them out. Thank you.

But, not trying to twist out of this, let's take one more look at it:

FOR THE PERIOD AT SUNSET OR AFTER, ONCE THE BLIZZARD SET IN:

Luke spent some time with the snow beast inside his lair. The snow beast's lair was an ice cave and likely provided only the protection the snow beast required, whatever that was. Meanwhile, Han was inside the base's hangar. The base is mainly carved out of ice. So, it seems possible that the snow creature's cave and the ice base for the rebellion *could* have provided somewhat similar climates? I think the inside of an igloo hovers around 40 to 50 degrees without fire, but that's mainly due to small interior space and body heat. (Maybe the snow beast had a fire somewhere inside the lair? Maybe the rebellion had heaters that didn't melt ice too? -- again back to SW tech)

If so (and really not sure on any of those points) but anyway, if so, then Luke was out in the actual blizzard for only about the same time as Han (when Han went out looking for Luke). Why? Because Luke cuts free of the snow beast and makes his way out into the actual blizzard about the same time Han has realized he needs to be out looking for him.

But, as you say, Luke was worn out from the snow beast's attack, being hung upside down, then fighting back (cutting free). Plus, before the sun set and blizzard blew in, Luke was outside on patrol. And Han's Tauntaun was pushed until it frothed at the mouth and choked (similar to pushing a horse hard, it looks like to me)

So, the main thing isn't so much that Han wasn't out in the actual blizzard for as long as Luke, but rather that Han hadn't exerted himself as much as the Tauntaun or Luke apparently did, right? For the Tauntaun, being pushed so hard meant death. For Luke, being out walking, meant keeping his heart rate up. For Han, on the other hand, he was in the breeze provided by the Tauntaun's movement and the breeze of the blizzard and just sitting there (well he was riding, and that does require a bit of work) But, anyway who was keeping warmer then? Han or Luke?

So Han is inside an ice structure while Luke was inside an ice structure. Then they both set out into the actual blizzard, arguably at about the same time. Luke is walking. Han riding. Both exposed to the blizzard. Both wearing the protective equipment provided by the rebel forces. One was beaten up and then went walking - the other fresher and riding.

Here's another myth in the film (unfortunately completely untestable): Could a person obliterate a room full of children and then still be taken seriously later?

It seems to me that it was the exposure to the blizzard at sunset that makes all the difference. C3PO's comments and other things tell me that the blizzard at sunset presents a problem above anything else that was going on previously.

Both Han and Luke were protected from direct exposure to that blizzard in the cooler evening, until they both went out into it.

also the rebels did not have heaters that did not melt ice - hence the accident with R2 accidentally thawing Leia's quarters.

According to the notes about Empire Strikes Back on IMDb;



www.imdb.com/title/tt0080684/trivia?ref_=tt_trv_trv

Echo base is echoed by a real world underground base called 'Camp Century'. (No pun intended)

io9.com/5740188/project-iceworm-the-nuclear-city-hidden-under-greenlands-glaciers

The technology of the SW universe would probably be more than good enough to allow such a base to be heated to a comfortable level. However, at the time of the film the base was still being set up so such creature comforts would be low on the priority list. (We know the base is new because Luke and Han were out setting up the bases perimeter alarms at the start of the film, and because they hadn't quite managed to get the airspeeder's adapted for the climate - as a military base the defence systems would have priority).

C3-PO's comment was that 'It is meant to be freezing' in Leia's quarters, although we don't know if he was being literal or using 'freezing' to just mean 'cold'. In fact given that there is no mist from people while they are talking in the base and no one is wearing gloves we could reasonably assume that the temperature in the base was above freezing.

As to Han, he has the ideal way to get warm - get inside the Falcon. While he is seen working outside the Falcon when he realised Luke is missing, that doesn't mean that he wasn't inside the Falcon - who's interior could be maintained at a much higher temperature than the base - earlier.

I can certainly concede that Luke's feet, being completely encased in ice earlier, would have created a very cold condition. Having warm feet (extremities) can be the basis for much longer cold tolerance (as may have been the case for Han):

www.freepatentsonline.com/3465120.html

So, basically, we factor out Han's situation and zero in on just Luke:

Is it better to stick him in guts and then, shortly after, a shelter?

Or, just building the shelter as quickly as possible and sticking him directly into that instead?

You both seem convinced Han was correct. I, on the other hand, merely wonder (some) -- (but I do see your points)

Again, it probably all comes down to how quickly erecting the shelter can be done. Odds are, Han is telling us it will take longer than a minute because he chooses to cut open the Tauntaun. Right?