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Post by OziRiS on Jun 11, 2013 20:52:36 GMT
So is a common tube sock and I have no problem telling left from right after having worn a pair 5 or 6 times, even though they're washed regularly.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 17, 2013 9:23:52 GMT
Longbows were, as was discussed at length on the old site, a personal thing, each archer had his own custom bow to his own strength. The rate of fire was an expected amount. Longbows obviously had a greater rate of fire than Crossbows.....
Now something I just found out. The feather on the bows that pints away from the bow, be that either cross-bow or Long-bow, the feather that points away from the actual woodwork, was called the Cock feather..... Usually made from a Cockerels feathers being slightly different in colour (And texture?...)so you could orientate it at speed.... Get it wrong, and have the feather pointing up rather than away from the bow, and, you quite literally had a "Cock-up"................. The real origin of that phrase?...
Myth or Fact?...
I have been assured (as often you do get someone telling you so) that this is fact.
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Post by the light works on Jun 17, 2013 14:28:32 GMT
Longbows were, as was discussed at length on the old site, a personal thing, each archer had his own custom bow to his own strength. The rate of fire was an expected amount. Longbows obviously had a greater rate of fire than Crossbows..... Now something I just found out. The feather on the bows that pints away from the bow, be that either cross-bow or Long-bow, the feather that points away from the actual woodwork, was called the Cock feather..... Usually made from a Cockerels feathers being slightly different in colour (And texture?...)so you could orientate it at speed.... Get it wrong, and have the feather pointing up rather than away from the bow, and, you quite literally had a "Cock-up"................. The real origin of that phrase?... Myth or Fact?... I have been assured (as often you do get someone telling you so) that this is fact. technically not up, in any orientation that I can imagine the bow being fired. it would either point directly away from the bow or directly to the bow. here is a link that includes a comprehensive listing of the possibilities: english.stackexchange.com/questions/57899/what-is-the-origin-and-earliest-recorded-usage-of-cock-up
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Post by blazerrose on Jun 18, 2013 5:14:24 GMT
Would this be the place to bring up the Russian ice cannon that had been mentioned on the old Disco boards?
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 18, 2013 6:24:01 GMT
Longbows were, as was discussed at length on the old site, a personal thing, each archer had his own custom bow to his own strength. The rate of fire was an expected amount. Longbows obviously had a greater rate of fire than Crossbows..... Now something I just found out. The feather on the bows that pints away from the bow, be that either cross-bow or Long-bow, the feather that points away from the actual woodwork, was called the Cock feather..... Usually made from a Cockerels feathers being slightly different in colour (And texture?...)so you could orientate it at speed.... Get it wrong, and have the feather pointing up rather than away from the bow, and, you quite literally had a "Cock-up"................. The real origin of that phrase?... Myth or Fact?... I have been assured (as often you do get someone telling you so) that this is fact. Might this also be the origin of the term "cocking a weapon"? That term never made sense to me.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 18, 2013 6:43:15 GMT
Oziris.... You have a good question, and possibly an answer.........?....
Anyone care to enlighten us on that?....
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 18, 2013 11:30:22 GMT
Nope. With a musket the cock is the s-shaped 'hammer' that holds the flint/match. It wasn't usually called a hammer as it is today because it didn't hit anything itself, being designed to scrape the flint into the frizzen-pan to create sparks that ignited the power. Hence to 'cock a gun' meant to pull the cock fully back so the weapon was ready to be fired - exactly the same as with modern guns. Incidentally 'going off half-cocked' relates to the fact that unlike modern guns the hammer of a musket had three positions. As well as up - ready to be fired - and down (usually after being fired, but it also acted as a safety catch of sorts) there was a middle setting where the hammer could be raised enough to allow the frizzen-pan to be loaded with powder. It was possible for the hammer to slip when it was in this position and ignite the powder - hence the gun would discharge when it was at half-cock. Would this be the place to bring up the Russian ice cannon that had been mentioned on the old Disco boards? No. The ice cannon idea has been posted elsewhere. Besides which the ice cannon dates to a much later period - I *think* around the time of Catherine the Great - which is well past the Medieval period.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 18, 2013 11:40:20 GMT
Just read somewhere that in the 17th century, the hammer on some flintlocks would actually be decorated to look like a rooster, which is also suspected of being the reason for calling it "a cock".
{That is quite possible. It is also possible that it is an English corruption of a term used in another language - CM}
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Post by the light works on Jun 18, 2013 14:16:47 GMT
Would this be the place to bring up the Russian ice cannon that had been mentioned on the old Disco boards? actually, no. it has its own thread in the weapons forum.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 18, 2013 18:50:57 GMT
Just read somewhere that in the 17th century, the hammer on some flintlocks would actually be decorated to look like a rooster, which is also suspected of being the reason for calling it "a cock". {That is quite possible. It is also possible that it is an English corruption of a term used in another language - CM}Not at all unlikely. I just finished reading a book by Steven Pinker called 'The Stuff of Thought' (great read if you're into linguistics and the study of human nature BTW) where he among other things debunks the otherwise funny and believable origin of the 'F' word as once set fort by our very own Lex as 'For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge' and other acronyms such as 'Fornicating Under Concent of the King'. The word actually comes from an older Scandinavian word meaning 'to strike' and was much later adapted into the English word that we know (and - for some at least - love) today.
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Post by the light works on Jun 19, 2013 0:23:27 GMT
variant I heard had it as a colloquialism for agricultural plowing. - though that may have come after the Scandinavian usage.
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Post by blazerrose on Jun 19, 2013 3:29:41 GMT
Would this be the place to bring up the Russian ice cannon that had been mentioned on the old Disco boards? I go hang my head in shame..... I never go to the weapons forum... Can you tell?
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 19, 2013 18:51:44 GMT
variant I heard had it as a colloquialism for agricultural plowing. - though that may have come after the Scandinavian usage. I believe that was either an old germanic or ancient Dutch word, but yes. That has also been in the running for the title of 'origin of the F-word'.
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Post by blindleader on Jun 21, 2013 21:10:27 GMT
This does of course remind me of the various myths about the English longbow, if it really was powerful enough to get through plate armour of that period at any range or even if it really possessed a significant range advantage over other designs in use at the time? I'm convinced there's never a simple answer to that type of question It depends heavily on the period and circumstances of its use. I've seen demonstration on video showing a bodkin point war arrow easily penetrating plate armor (a direct shot, not at range) said to be equivalent to genuine medieval stuff. On the other hand, a recent Discovery Channel program on Braveheart showed the same type of arrow unable to pierce reproduction gamberson material, which is many layers of linen, not so different from the Kevlar armor used today. I think the mythos of the long bow arose, not because of its superior characteristics (nothing but a single stick carved very cleverly from a yew tree), but to the historical events (Agincourt being only the most famous) in which it played a part. A very similar effect is seen with the B-17 bomber, but that's for another thread.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 22, 2013 5:04:08 GMT
Just read somewhere that in the 17th century, the hammer on some flintlocks would actually be decorated to look like a rooster, which is also suspected of being the reason for calling it "a cock". {That is quite possible. It is also possible that it is an English corruption of a term used in another language - CM}Not at all unlikely. I just finished reading a book by Steven Pinker called 'The Stuff of Thought' (great read if you're into linguistics and the study of human nature BTW) where he among other things debunks the otherwise funny and believable origin of the 'F' word as once set fort by our very own Lex as 'For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge' and other acronyms such as 'Fornicating Under Concent of the King'. The word actually comes from an older Scandinavian word meaning 'to strike' and was much later adapted into the English word that we know (and - for some at least - love) today. Not sure it`s Scandinavian in origin, the Oxford English Dictionary suggests that both it and say the Swedish word and the Dutch word for it come from an older root in the Germanic language groups.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 22, 2013 11:42:56 GMT
This does of course remind me of the various myths about the English longbow, if it really was powerful enough to get through plate armour of that period at any range or even if it really possessed a significant range advantage over other designs in use at the time? I'm convinced there's never a simple answer to that type of question It depends heavily on the period and circumstances of its use. I've seen demonstration on video showing a bodkin point war arrow easily penetrating plate armor (a direct shot, not at range) said to be equivalent to genuine medieval stuff. On the other hand, a recent Discovery Channel program on Braveheart showed the same type of arrow unable to pierce reproduction gamberson material, which is many layers of linen, not so different from the Kevlar armor used today. I think the mythos of the long bow arose, not because of its superior characteristics (nothing but a single stick carved very cleverly from a yew tree), but to the historical events (Agincourt being only the most famous) in which it played a part. A very similar effect is seen with the B-17 bomber, but that's for another thread. I agree, although one of the reasons I posted the idea (and would be interested in MB looking at it) is because I haven't seen a good scientific test of what longbows could really do in this regards. Sometimes it seems that shows that have tackled the myth have slated their tests towards the bow or armour depending on the nature of the show. Settling on a type of armour to be tested may not be that hard. If we make the (not unreasonable) assumption that many of myths may have originated from the Battle of Agincourt then that would give us a very specific period, location and design of armours to look at. We also don't need a full suit of armour for initial tests, since if we have that information tests can be carried out using metal plates of the correct strength and thickness. This would allow for a simple rig that would allow tests at different ranges and draw weights against different armours quickly and cheaply.
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2013 21:54:36 GMT
a simple press and a few sheets of sheet metal with the correct metallurgy would be adequate for the receiving end rig. (because the shaping makes a difference)
one should keep in mind that the expression "xxxx proof" comes from this time period, when a new suit of armor would be proven resistant to a certain class of weapons by firing the weapon into the breastplate at close range. there was arrow proof, crossbow proof, pistol proof and musket proof armor sold at various points in the development of weapons.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 27, 2013 5:41:27 GMT
Longbows were not always Yew. I have seen evidence stating Ash was used. As for the Archer, there is distinct reference of almost "Freak" body-build, Tall, and mostly upper body built up by weight training, the archer would practise daily, and the ability to draw 200 lbs bows repeatedly, it was a specialist job.... Just as today, our "Sniper" training for armed forces is a highly skilled job, it is plausible, and suggested, that Archers for the Long bow were highly trained strong extremely well built specialists.
Chain mail and light armour were no barrier to the Bodkin arrow head, in a TV series "War walks", they covered Agincourt, and a archer fired a bodkin through two layers of historically accurate chain mail with 20 layers of cotton material sandwiched between them..... the results were I suppose confirmed as deadly had it hit an important organ?.. And the longbow used, although close, was nowhere near the legendary 200lbs draw.... We just dont have anyone trained to draw a 200lb longbow bow these days....
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 27, 2013 13:21:42 GMT
Skeletons recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose have confirmed this. Several were found to have to have abnormally large right arms from repeatedly pulling the drawstring back.
Actually there is some debate over the 200lb draw weight figure for the Longbow. While a couple of recreations of the bows found with the Mary Rose did show draw weights this high, there are strong suspicions that the recreations were flawed.
Even if they were not the actual draw weight seems to have varied from between 120-200lbs, with the average draw weights falling into the 140-160lb range for an average bow. This would also explain why some of the Mary Rose Bows showed the highest draw weight figures. Presumably the Rose carried spare bows, and would have needed to have covered the range of draw weights archers used. Of course just because that may have included bows in the 180-200lb range doesn't mean that there were many men of the period who could use bows that powerful - it is quite possible that no one on the Rose at the time she sank was capable of using such a bow. At this period armies were raised by the local lords so there would be considerable variation in quality.
Of course this doesn't mean that the Longbow was not a powerful weapon for the period. Typical hunting bows of the period show draw weights in the 60-80lb range (Deer not being known for wearing chainmail), typical war bows show draw weights in the 90-120lb range. So even the weakest English archer would have been equal to other archers, and the average archer would have been using a bow that was significantly more powerful than anything but a crossbow.
English archers don't seem to have been trained specifically for strength, but for accuracy and speed - after all the longbow was the heavy machine gun of its time, meaning an area effect weapon against massed troops. At the time of Agincourt to be considered an archer meant that you had to be capable of firing a minimum of 10 aimed shots per minute. Being able to do this even with a fairly low powered bow would of course have required a fair degree of strength, but this would have been incidental to what you were trying to do.
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Post by the light works on Jun 27, 2013 13:53:22 GMT
Skeletons recovered from the wreck of the Mary Rose have confirmed this. Several were found to have to have abnormally large right arms from repeatedly pulling the drawstring back. Actually there is some debate over the 200lb draw weight figure for the Longbow. While a couple of recreations of the bows found with the Mary Rose did show draw weights this high, there are strong suspicions that the recreations were flawed. Even if they were not the actual draw weight seems to have varied from between 120-200lbs, with the average draw weights falling into the 140-160lb range for an average bow. This would also explain why some of the Mary Rose Bows showed the highest draw weight figures. Presumably the Rose carried spare bows, and would have needed to have covered the range of draw weights archers used. Of course just because that may have included bows in the 180-200lb range doesn't mean that there were many men of the period who could use bows that powerful - it is quite possible that no one on the Rose at the time she sank was capable of using such a bow. At this period armies were raised by the local lords so there would be considerable variation in quality. Of course this doesn't mean that the Longbow was not a powerful weapon for the period. Typical hunting bows of the period show draw weights in the 60-80lb range (Deer not being known for wearing chainmail), typical war bows show draw weights in the 90-120lb range. So even the weakest English archer would have been equal to other archers, and the average archer would have been using a bow that was significantly more powerful than anything but a crossbow. English archers don't seem to have been trained specifically for strength, but for accuracy and speed - after all the longbow was the heavy machine gun of its time, meaning an area effect weapon against massed troops. At the time of Agincourt to be considered an archer meant that you had to be capable of firing a minimum of 10 aimed shots per minute. Being able to do this even with a fairly low powered bow would of course have required a fair degree of strength, but this would have been incidental to what you were trying to do. from a recent episode of "Top Shot" (History channel) one of the contestants (the tallest, with gorilla arms) was firing a modern longbow at a target 100 yards away - using direct fire aim, rather than lobbing the arrows at the target. edit: gorilla arms = arms that are long compared to the average.
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