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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 6, 2013 19:55:28 GMT
Not a specific myth idea, but a themed show idea that comes from the 'Quenching a Blade' idea thread; citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/thread/293/quenching-blade?page=1Basically can you lot think of medieval myths that might go well with that idea? Some examples I can think of; A knights armour was so heavy they were incapable of mounting a horse without assistance. (This is false. The Victorians discovered mounting platforms at old jousting fields and assumed that this was how knights HAD to mount their chargers. Rather than realising that A; Jousting armour was more ornate and heavier than armour worn for battle. And B; No knight would want to risk a frisky steed bolting as they were trying to climb onto it, resulting in them getting dragged across the field in front of all their peers.) Swords being the ultimate battlefield weapon of their time and the weapon of choice for knights. (Also false. Knights seem to have avoided using swords if their opponent had any significant amount of armour on.) I recall several myths about ways to test a woman's urine to see if she was pregnant, although I can't recall the details off the top of my head. Any more you can think of?
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Post by the light works on Jun 6, 2013 20:16:41 GMT
I think the sword was more of a status symbol than a primary weapon.
There's also the myth that armor was worthless against guns, hence its demise. The myth that castles were always cold and damp. various myths about the cutting power of swords.
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Post by ironhold on Jun 7, 2013 0:17:38 GMT
Swords were great when all your enemies had were skins, hides, and leathers for armor.
But the rise of metal armors required a shift towards maces, morning stars, flails, hammers, and other weapons that could do damage both from the impact and from the concussion (meaning that the wearer still got banged up even if the armor stopped the direct impact).
In fact, maces were still in comparatively common use by European forces as late as WWI, where IIRC they made surprisingly excellent weapons for soldiers who were raiding opposing trenches.
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Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2013 1:57:24 GMT
we could have a study on what a medieval weapon REALLY looked and worked like. case in point - a mace wasn't a little metal ball on a short stick.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 7, 2013 10:58:12 GMT
I think the sword was more of a status symbol than a primary weapon. There's also the myth that armor was worthless against guns, hence its demise. The myth that castles were always cold and damp. various myths about the cutting power of swords. I have been in a few castles that were not cold and damp, when on Holiday at various places around the Mediterranean sea in Greece, Spain. But even in this country in Castles that I have visited in Summer they are not always cold and damp, they can get quite stifling warm when the weather in hot enough, but cold in winter. I think the problem is thermal Lag, when it`s hot enough the stone and masonry get warm and stay warm. In winter the cold outside gets the walls cold and only in rooms with decent fireplaces are warm. However its difficult to know completely how a medieval castle would be in at the period, modern Castles that I have been to are either; 1) In a disused state and unheated or 2) Refitted at a later date with more modern heating systems as they are used as a Family seat, as a Museum or even a Barracks in some cases.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 7, 2013 12:25:15 GMT
The myth that Knights only fort Knights with Lance and mace etc. At Crecy Edward had his Knights fight dismounted elbow to elbow with pike and bow, while the French Knights lumbered up a muddy slope. At Agincourt Shakespeare wrote that many of the French Knights drowned in the blood and the mud, basically weighed down by their armour. Common men and some/most Knights could not afford armour, chain mail and a stout leather jacket were worn for protection. Weapons of the common soldier included the "Bill" and the Halberd, period dependant. You cannot say for example that a weapon was used exclusively, it was situation dependant. A mounted Knight in close quarter combat with another Knight would use a mace battle axe or hammer, weapons totaly useless against a man with a pike. Interesting idea, I hope it makes its way to a testable myth.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 7, 2013 12:36:10 GMT
The most successful weapon in history would be the spear followed by the knife. Both weapons have been used in some form for millennia and are still being used (or at least carried) by soldiers today*.
We need to be careful in what myths we think of here, since something's would probably be better on a history show rather than MB
What about the old myth that a Knight that fell over was incapable of getting back to their feet unaided?
(*A rifle with a bayonet attactched is basically a spear)
What about testing some of the hybrid weapons that appeared in the early days of gunpowder? There were a wide array of weapons that tried to add a gun to an existing type of melee weapon - such as sword-pistols and musket-maces. Some of these have reappeared in fiction (including computer games) over the last 20 or so years and been posted as ideas on Discovery before now.
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Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2013 13:11:39 GMT
also, the myth that water + armor = immediate drowning.
(I have fought for hourlong stretches in armor, and done somersaults in armor)
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 7, 2013 13:52:36 GMT
also, the myth that water + armor = immediate drowning. (I have fought for hourlong stretches in armor, and done somersaults in armor) I stand in awe at one who fought at Crecy or Agincourt
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 7, 2013 14:12:33 GMT
also, the myth that water + armor = immediate drowning. (I have fought for hourlong stretches in armor, and done somersaults in armor) I stand in awe at one who fought at Crecy or Agincourt The knights at Asincourt couldn't get back up because they were being walked over by a thousand men-at-arms. In fact it seems that the knights may not have drowned but been trampled to death.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 7, 2013 14:25:09 GMT
I stand in awe at one who fought at Crecy or Agincourt The knights at Asincourt couldn't get back up because they were being walked over by a thousand men-at-arms. In fact it seems that the knights may not have drowned but been trampled to death. That's what you get when you cite Shakespeare. He was never a reliable source
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Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2013 14:41:02 GMT
I stand in awe at one who fought at Crecy or Agincourt The knights at Asincourt couldn't get back up because they were being walked over by a thousand men-at-arms. In fact it seems that the knights may not have drowned but been trampled to death. my understanding is that severe tactical errors were also involved. accounts suggest the biggest issue for the french was wading through deep mud uphill in close quarters. I normally wore a barred helmet, but midway through my career, it was determined that the particular combination of helmet and gorget I wore was not sufficient - if I happened to take a pike to the face at the same time another person was thrusting upwards with his sword riding against my torso, the tip MIGHT slide in behind my helmet and hit my chin - so I was required to wear a leather drape on the chin of the helmet - and that SIGNIFICANTLY reduced my breathing efficiency. - the accounts mention that the men at arms had to charge with their visors down due to the heavy archery fire - which would have the same effect, only more so. the account as cited in wikipedia says that the men at arms were too tired by the time they reached the English lines to even raise their weapons. (guess we don't get to upload images any more)
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 8, 2013 11:47:56 GMT
Sorry couldn't resist, but if ya had to go And shoes I remember hearing that there were no left or right footwear
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 8, 2013 12:40:46 GMT
The knights at Asincourt couldn't get back up because they were being walked over by a thousand men-at-arms. In fact it seems that the knights may not have drowned but been trampled to death. my understanding is that severe tactical errors were also involved. The only thing the French managed to do correctly was intercept the English army. They sat there and watched when the English re-positioned their archers, something that took most of the morning as the archers had to pull apart and then rebuild their anti-cavalry fortification leaving them open to a cavalry charge. Then when the French cavalry was in a perfect position to hit the English lines from the rear they decided to run off after the English wagon-trains instead. Last of all they decided on a frontal attack against prepared defences (which as I said they had sat there and watched being built) down a narrow corridor that prevented them from flanking the English lines and allowed the English archers to concentrate their fire. Of course the armchair general usually fails to understand that the basic reason the French did so badly was that they lacked clear leadership. The English army was a unified force with a clear leadership (the King). The French army was a collection of dukes, most of whom had been busy fighting each other until they woke up and realised that having an English army walking through Northern France as if they owned the place* didn't look that good. So the French lacked clear leadership, and in effect was commanded by a committee - which never turns out well. If the French army had possessed a clear leadership things would probably have gone badly for the English, if only because even the most timid commander would probably have unleashed his cavalry when the English archers were moved. Failing that plan B would have been to have just sat there and waited. The English were out of provisions at the time of the battle, and they would either have been forced to attack the French or seek terms by the next morning had the French not attacked them. (*Of course the English DID think they owned the place, Henry V had a claim on the French Throne. In fact the entire campaign was about getting the French nobility to accept this - because nothing says 'I am your rightful King' more than invading another country, beating up everyone in your way and stripping the land like a pack of locusts.)
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 8, 2013 12:54:44 GMT
Dr. Richard Holmes: Agincourt 1415 Me its "God For Harry,England and St George" confuses the Aussies no end
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Post by the light works on Jun 8, 2013 13:29:51 GMT
my understanding is that severe tactical errors were also involved. The only thing the French managed to do correctly was intercept the English army. They sat there and watched when the English re-positioned their archers, something that took most of the morning as the archers had to pull apart and then rebuild their anti-cavalry fortification leaving them open to a cavalry charge. Then when the French cavalry was in a perfect position to hit the English lines from the rear they decided to run off after the English wagon-trains instead. Last of all they decided on a frontal attack against prepared defences (which as I said they had sat there and watched being built) down a narrow corridor that prevented them from flanking the English lines and allowed the English archers to concentrate their fire. Of course the armchair general usually fails to understand that the basic reason the French did so badly was that they lacked clear leadership. The English army was a unified force with a clear leadership (the King). The French army was a collection of dukes, most of whom had been busy fighting each other until they woke up and realised that having an English army walking through Northern France as if they owned the place* didn't look that good. So the French lacked clear leadership, and in effect was commanded by a committee - which never turns out well. If the French army had possessed a clear leadership things would probably have gone badly for the English, if only because even the most timid commander would probably have unleashed his cavalry when the English archers were moved. Failing that plan B would have been to have just sat there and waited. The English were out of provisions at the time of the battle, and they would either have been forced to attack the French or seek terms by the next morning had the French not attacked them. (*Of course the English DID think they owned the place, Henry V had a claim on the French Throne. In fact the entire campaign was about getting the French nobility to accept this - because nothing says 'I am your rightful King' more than invading another country, beating up everyone in your way and stripping the land like a pack of locusts.) yeah, the sensible thing would've been to bottle them up and let them marinate in their own juices. one problem with that is that the English had a longer archery range. it's hard to pin down an enemy who can shoot you before you can shoot them.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 8, 2013 14:48:35 GMT
Archers were very vulnerable to cavalry, and were never used unless they were behind some form of anti-cavalry defence (or at least if anyone had any option). Traditionally archers were deployed with pikemen on the field, but at Agincourt they were also behind a line of sharpened wooden poles - King Henry seems to have prepared for a battle against a numerically superior force as he gave orders for all his archers to create two such poles and carry them with them*.
Archers were the heavy machine gunners of their time, and like a heavy machine gun are effectively area-effect defensive weapons rather than offensive ones. Trying to use them as an offensive 'weapon' to break out of the trap the English had staggered into would have been a disaster, they would have been cut apart by the French Cavalry was they tried to move into position.
(*The archers were carrying twice the normal number of arrows as well - 100 per man, so clearly Henry had planned for the possibility of running into a large French army. So 100 arrows, two large wooden poles, a large maul to drive the poles into the ground, a bow and all the other weapons and equipment...its hardly surprising it took the English archers most of the morning to reposition themselves some 200 yards in this light.)
This does of course remind me of the various myths about the English longbow, if it really was powerful enough to get through plate armour of that period at any range or even if it really possessed a significant range advantage over other designs in use at the time?
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Post by the light works on Jun 8, 2013 15:15:05 GMT
Archers were very vulnerable to cavalry, and were never used unless they were behind some form of anti-cavalry defence (or at least if anyone had any option). Traditionally archers were deployed with pikemen on the field, but at Agincourt they were also behind a line of sharpened wooden poles - King Henry seems to have prepared for a battle against a numerically superior force as he gave orders for all his archers to create two such poles and carry them with them*. Archers were the heavy machine gunners of their time, and like a heavy machine gun are effectively area-effect defensive weapons rather than offensive ones. Trying to use them as an offensive 'weapon' to break out of the trap the English had staggered into would have been a disaster, they would have been cut apart by the French Cavalry was they tried to move into position. (*The archers were carrying twice the normal number of arrows as well - 100 per man, so clearly Henry had planned for the possibility of running into a large French army. So 100 arrows, two large wooden poles, a large maul to drive the poles into the ground, a bow and all the other weapons and equipment...its hardly surprising it took the English archers most of the morning to reposition themselves some 200 yards in this light.) This does of course remind me of the various myths about the English longbow, if it really was powerful enough to get through plate armour of that period at any range or even if it really possessed a significant range advantage over other designs in use at the time? the longbow does have a range and rate of fire advantage over the crossbows that were common with less practiced archers. using bodkin arrows, DIRECT fire can penetrate poor quality armor. in this case, the difference between the english archers and french archers would compare to the difference between a rifle and a carbine. and, really, according to accounts cited on wikipedia, the repositioning of the english archers put them in position to lob a few arrows into the french lines - which triggered the decision to charge.
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Post by privatepaddy on Jun 8, 2013 15:18:08 GMT
Interesting thread
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Post by Antigone68104 on Jun 10, 2013 16:47:04 GMT
And shoes I remember hearing that there were no left or right footwear Confirmed -- older shoes were often made on a straight last. I bought a pair of reproduction late-1700s straight-last shoes two months ago to go with my entry in Costume Con's historical masquerade. There's a common misperception that a person wearing straight-last shoes should alternate which shoe is worn on which foot "so they wear evenly". Everyone who actually wears straight-last on a regular basis argues that this is wrong; the shoes should be worn on the same feet so they mold to the wearer's feet. The company I ordered mine from recommends marking the shoes on the inside until this molding occurs. I don't know if that would be worth testing, though, since it's a bit obscure. (I believe ballet shoes are still made on a straight last. That might be a cheaper way to test this, should they be interested.)
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