|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 24, 2013 14:10:57 GMT
The next ice cream test will be adapting that recipe for chocolate ice cream. A link from another discussion brought me to a site with a nutritional breakdown of modern MRE cocoa mix; comparing it to a web-obtained nutritional breakdown of Nestle's cocoa mix shows that the military version is a bit higher in fat and has some additional vitamins. Should this appear on the show, I suspect the guys might want to order a case of the military cocoa for maximum authenticity. For my testing, I think grabbing the richest and highest-fat content commercial cocoa mix should work. I know there was a mention up-thread about freezing the ice cream in an ammo box, but I don't know how easy it would be to scrub one of those out to food-safe standards. Any other ideas for something a WWII cook might have been able to scavenge? I have access to a couple hiking/camping/hunting stores, there's some military surplus stores in the area as well, and one of my taste-testers has full commissary/PX privileges. two thoughts on that: one is "what is this standards of which you speak?" the other is if mess halls were equipped with aluminum foil. when I bake sugary stuff in my dutch oven, I line it with foil to prevent the sugar from bonding to the cast iron. they could line the ammo cans with foil to provide a relatively clean container. |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Sept 24, 2013 14:37:48 GMT
Nice going Antigone  I think that 'food safe' standards would be somewhat lower when you are in the middle of a war. So any container they may have used probably wasn't scrubbed clean, just possibly visually checked for anything they could see (Biting a bullet is no fun when you were expecting iced cream) and had hot water poured through it - although they *might* have washed a box out when or if they did the rest of the pots. Off the top of my head I think that anything that is likely to build up inside an ammo box would be water soluble or otherwise removable using hot water, something they would have at hand as they probably boiled a lot of water for everyday use anyway. An alternative to a full sized ammunition box might be a lidded mess tin, which seem to have been fairly common for European armies and are available as modern civilian versions. These would be in effect a small version of a metal ammunition box and should fit in a freezer as well as being small enough to allow for quick and easy cleaning. The other alternative that was mentioned or hinted at for a container was an external drop tank - unused of course. These were constructed of compressed cardboard and on the face of it ideal for chilling liquid since they were attached to the underside of the wings and hence would have a large surface area from which to loose heat*. That said I wonder if the nature of the cardboard might not provide too much insulation to allow for freezing in the time the aircraft was apparently in flight**. The closest I can think of that would be available today would be bed-pans used in hospitals, which are compressed cardboard and of course designed to hold 'liquids'. The version for men, which is basically a small sealed bowl with a tube, would be as close to a drop tank as you could get in everything but shape. You might be able to pick up one of these from your local hospital or a care home if you ask nicely...and telling them you want to make ice cream in it should result in some interesting facial expressions and conversations.... (*The question as to why the fuel in the tanks didn't freeze is simple. Aviation fuel - which in WW2 would be gasoline - seems to have a freezing point of between -40>-60 degrees C.) (**I don't recall any specific figure being given for the amount of time the aircraft was in flight. However given the performance of WW2 aircraft and comments from pilots circa 1940 I'd expect an average flight time of about an hour - I'd assume that the pilot had to stay up long enough so that the log book entry would make it look like a normal test flight.) |
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Sept 24, 2013 18:24:31 GMT
Great report Antigone68104! Food safety standards to a GI, forward deployed are really next to worthless, as far as the historical content goes. GI's have been cooking in ammo cans, steel helmets and canteen cups since these things were invented. Ammo cans of the last 30-40 years that I've handled, are painted on the outside and some are painted on the inside, though some just seem to be bare black steel on the inside, though this "black" may be paint as well. It really doesn't look like paint.* I have some WWII ammo cans down in the garage, I will check to see if they painted on the inside or not. I can't remember at the moment. For your home testing purposes, surplus ammo cans that are in good shape and not all banged up and rusted and having had god only knows, stored in them, typically run about $20 for a good .50 caliber BMG sized can. That may be more than you want to spend. Now, a good substitute and probably better choice per your food safety concerns for your taste testers, would be plastic ammo cans from the civilian market. These can typically be found at most sporting goods stores and even Wal-Mart for about $9. The plastic ammo cans Look like this. * I pulled some ammo cans out from under my bed to check if they were all painted on the inside. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Sept 24, 2013 18:32:23 GMT
Great report Antigone68104! Food safety standards to a GI, forward deployed are really next to worthless, as far as the historical content goes. GI's have been cooking in ammo cans, steel helmets and canteen cups since these things were invented. Ammo cans of the last 30-40 years that I've handled, are painted on the outside and some are painted on the inside, though some just seem to be bare black steel on the inside, though this "black" may be paint as well. It really doesn't look like paint.* I have some WWII ammo cans down in the garage, I will check to see if they painted on the inside or not. I can't remember at the moment. For your home testing purposes, surplus ammo cans that are in good shape and not all banged up and rusted and having had god only knows, stored in them, typically run about $20 for a good .50 caliber BMG sized can. That may be more than you want to spend. Now, a good substitute and probably better choice per your food safety concerns for your taste testers, would be plastic ammo cans from the civilian market. These can typically be found at most sporting goods stores and even Wal-Mart for about $9. The plastic ammo cans Look like this. * I pulled some ammo cans out from under my bed to check if they were all painted on the inside. wouldn't food safety to a forward deployed soldier be predominantly related to avoiding a clear line of fire? |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Sept 24, 2013 19:25:35 GMT
Great report Antigone68104! Food safety standards to a GI, forward deployed are really next to worthless, as far as the historical content goes. GI's have been cooking in ammo cans, steel helmets and canteen cups since these things were invented. Ammo cans of the last 30-40 years that I've handled, are painted on the outside and some are painted on the inside, though some just seem to be bare black steel on the inside, though this "black" may be paint as well. It really doesn't look like paint.* I have some WWII ammo cans down in the garage, I will check to see if they painted on the inside or not. I can't remember at the moment. For your home testing purposes, surplus ammo cans that are in good shape and not all banged up and rusted and having had god only knows, stored in them, typically run about $20 for a good .50 caliber BMG sized can. That may be more than you want to spend. Now, a good substitute and probably better choice per your food safety concerns for your taste testers, would be plastic ammo cans from the civilian market. These can typically be found at most sporting goods stores and even Wal-Mart for about $9. The plastic ammo cans Look like this. * I pulled some ammo cans out from under my bed to check if they were all painted on the inside. wouldn't food safety to a forward deployed soldier be predominantly related to avoiding a clear line of fire? For a soldier yes, for an airman no. If your airfield is within gunshot range of the enemy someone somewhere has screwed up*. Those that are mentioned, even if it was only by country, would have been well away from the front lines. (*Although I seem to recall that one US airfield in the Pacific during WW2 was within range of Japanese troops for several months. Thankfully it seems that Japanese rifles were not accurate enough to do much more than harass the ground crews.) |
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Sept 24, 2013 21:41:06 GMT
I think that 'food safe' standards would be somewhat lower when you are in the middle of a war. Not only during the war. Hygienic standards were pretty low until the late 1970s. Whenever there was mould on food, they just scratched off the visible mould, unaware of the fact that the actual mould is a lot deeper than just on the surface. |
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Sept 25, 2013 0:37:31 GMT
Great report Antigone68104! Food safety standards to a GI, forward deployed are really next to worthless, as far as the historical content goes. GI's have been cooking in ammo cans, steel helmets and canteen cups since these things were invented. Ammo cans of the last 30-40 years that I've handled, are painted on the outside and some are painted on the inside, though some just seem to be bare black steel on the inside, though this "black" may be paint as well. It really doesn't look like paint.* I have some WWII ammo cans down in the garage, I will check to see if they painted on the inside or not. I can't remember at the moment. For your home testing purposes, surplus ammo cans that are in good shape and not all banged up and rusted and having had god only knows, stored in them, typically run about $20 for a good .50 caliber BMG sized can. That may be more than you want to spend. Now, a good substitute and probably better choice per your food safety concerns for your taste testers, would be plastic ammo cans from the civilian market. These can typically be found at most sporting goods stores and even Wal-Mart for about $9. The plastic ammo cans Look like this. * I pulled some ammo cans out from under my bed to check if they were all painted on the inside. wouldn't food safety to a forward deployed soldier be predominantly related to avoiding a clear line of fire? Yep. You should see or participate in a Tactical Feed exercise, in which troops feed from a field kitchen, while under threat of enemy sniper fire. |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Sept 25, 2013 13:20:59 GMT
Nice going Antigone The other alternative that was mentioned or hinted at for a container was an external drop tank - unused of course. These were constructed of compressed cardboard and on the face of it ideal for chilling liquid since they were attached to the underside of the wings and hence would have a large surface area from which to loose heat*. That said I wonder if the nature of the cardboard might not provide too much insulation to allow for freezing in the time the aircraft was apparently in flight**. The closest I can think of that would be available today would be bed-pans used in hospitals, which are compressed cardboard and of course designed to hold 'liquids'. The version for men, which is basically a small sealed bowl with a tube, would be as close to a drop tank as you could get in everything but shape. You might be able to pick up one of these from your local hospital or a care home if you ask nicely...and telling them you want to make ice cream in it should result in some interesting facial expressions and conversations.... (*The question as to why the fuel in the tanks didn't freeze is simple. Aviation fuel - which in WW2 would be gasoline - seems to have a freezing point of between -40>-60 degrees C.) (**I don't recall any specific figure being given for the amount of time the aircraft was in flight. However given the performance of WW2 aircraft and comments from pilots circa 1940 I'd expect an average flight time of about an hour - I'd assume that the pilot had to stay up long enough so that the log book entry would make it look like a normal test flight.) While reactions to "I need some bedpans to make ice cream" would be funny, I don't have contacts with any of the area nursing homes. There's a sporting goods/military surplus store that says they carry mess kits, I'll run over there next week and see what's available. I can check prices on ammo cases at the same time. It'll have to be next week, because I'm going out of town this weekend -- my aunt and uncle want to see the National World War I Museum, and I'm always willing to go back there. While I'm in the thread, does anyone know if military cooks could get their hands on unflavored gelatin? Not "Jell-O", this stuff (if not that specific brand). One concern I've had about this is the heavy cream; would a base that was close enough to supply lines to get fresh cream and with the refrigeration to keep it fresh really need to use their planes to freeze ice cream? I've found a WWII recipe for "whipped evap" that was meant to substitute for whipped heavy cream. It uses canned evaporated milk, vanilla extract, a little bit of sugar, and unflavored gelatin. So far, I can document military cooks having access to everything except the gelatin. |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Sept 25, 2013 14:10:38 GMT
I've found nothing to indicate that gelatin was provided as part of WW2 rations, although since it can be stored in a dry state it might have been included in the B-Rations or part of the food stores on a ship - which might have allowed the quartermaster to trade for it.
That said, I wouldn't be too surprised if cooks stationed anywhere near a civilian population would have had little trouble getting their hands on the stuff - a couple of cigarettes or candy bars would probably be considered a fair trade for a cup of gelatin. A-Rations were about getting fresh food from local sources, which didn't usually apply to soldiers but was probably more likely for air/ground crews, so they might even have been able to buy it officially on the local level.
They might also have been able to get their hands on the stuff through food parcels from friends and family back home - which of course wouldn't have been mentioned in any official sources. A good cook, quartermaster or officer might have asked for some unusual items in any food packages sent from home to give the soldiers some variety, knowing this would increase moral.
The personal at an airbase could probably also manage to arrange for some ingredients to be brought to them by supply planes, even if those aircraft were not otherwise carrying food. Officers would most likely turn a blind eye to personal adding a small bag of food to an aircraft's cargo. Pilots themselves might also be able to bring such small luxuries back with them if they were allowed to fly to another airfield where such things could be found - so I'd guess Europe but probably not the Pacific theatre.
|
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Sept 25, 2013 16:06:33 GMT
Nice going Antigone The other alternative that was mentioned or hinted at for a container was an external drop tank - unused of course. These were constructed of compressed cardboard and on the face of it ideal for chilling liquid since they were attached to the underside of the wings and hence would have a large surface area from which to loose heat*. That said I wonder if the nature of the cardboard might not provide too much insulation to allow for freezing in the time the aircraft was apparently in flight**. The closest I can think of that would be available today would be bed-pans used in hospitals, which are compressed cardboard and of course designed to hold 'liquids'. The version for men, which is basically a small sealed bowl with a tube, would be as close to a drop tank as you could get in everything but shape. You might be able to pick up one of these from your local hospital or a care home if you ask nicely...and telling them you want to make ice cream in it should result in some interesting facial expressions and conversations.... (*The question as to why the fuel in the tanks didn't freeze is simple. Aviation fuel - which in WW2 would be gasoline - seems to have a freezing point of between -40>-60 degrees C.) (**I don't recall any specific figure being given for the amount of time the aircraft was in flight. However given the performance of WW2 aircraft and comments from pilots circa 1940 I'd expect an average flight time of about an hour - I'd assume that the pilot had to stay up long enough so that the log book entry would make it look like a normal test flight.) While reactions to "I need some bedpans to make ice cream" would be funny, I don't have contacts with any of the area nursing homes. There's a sporting goods/military surplus store that says they carry mess kits, I'll run over there next week and see what's available. I can check prices on ammo cases at the same time. It'll have to be next week, because I'm going out of town this weekend -- my aunt and uncle want to see the National World War I Museum, and I'm always willing to go back there. While I'm in the thread, does anyone know if military cooks could get their hands on unflavored gelatin? Not "Jell-O", this stuff (if not that specific brand). One concern I've had about this is the heavy cream; would a base that was close enough to supply lines to get fresh cream and with the refrigeration to keep it fresh really need to use their planes to freeze ice cream? I've found a WWII recipe for "whipped evap" that was meant to substitute for whipped heavy cream. It uses canned evaporated milk, vanilla extract, a little bit of sugar, and unflavored gelatin. So far, I can document military cooks having access to everything except the gelatin. Condensed, evaporated and powdered milks all were used in WWII. Fresh milk probably could have been traded for in Europe, but would have been very hard to come by in the Pacific, where stories of "airplane ice cream" also came from. Here is one brand/type of powdered milk used extensively in Europe and the Pacific, and still apparently produced and used in recipes today. Hope this helps. |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Oct 3, 2013 14:24:05 GMT
Checked a camping/military surplus store yesterday. I'd bet you could easily fit a gallon of ice cream in a .50 caliber ammo case. But are the lid hinges supposed to be that stiff? I could barely pry them open to check for internal rust (the wrong sort of iron for supplements  ), and a couple I couldn't pry open at all. No point in using one to make ice cream if you can't get the lid open enough to scoop the ice cream. OTOH, over with the camping/mess kits there were several 1 1/2 quart covered metal cookpots, with a clamp to hold the lid on. I'll see if any of the other camping stores, or department stores with camping departments, can beat the price, but that may be the way to go. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 3, 2013 15:23:57 GMT
Checked a camping/military surplus store yesterday. I'd bet you could easily fit a gallon of ice cream in a .50 caliber ammo case. But are the lid hinges supposed to be that stiff? I could barely pry them open to check for internal rust (the wrong sort of iron for supplements ), and a couple I couldn't pry open at all. No point in using one to make ice cream if you can't get the lid open enough to scoop the ice cream. OTOH, over with the camping/mess kits there were several 1 1/2 quart covered metal cookpots, with a clamp to hold the lid on. I'll see if any of the other camping stores, or department stores with camping departments, can beat the price, but that may be the way to go. all the ammo cans I have worked with have been on the stiff side - I think it is partly from making them to take a beating and partly from the fact that they don't see a lot of continuous use to keep them moving freely. |
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 3, 2013 16:39:36 GMT
Checked a camping/military surplus store yesterday. I'd bet you could easily fit a gallon of ice cream in a .50 caliber ammo case. But are the lid hinges supposed to be that stiff? I could barely pry them open to check for internal rust (the wrong sort of iron for supplements ), and a couple I couldn't pry open at all. No point in using one to make ice cream if you can't get the lid open enough to scoop the ice cream. OTOH, over with the camping/mess kits there were several 1 1/2 quart covered metal cookpots, with a clamp to hold the lid on. I'll see if any of the other camping stores, or department stores with camping departments, can beat the price, but that may be the way to go. Yeah, as TLW said, the hinges fit snug and then stiff if they don't get used often. If you get one open, several back and forth swings of the lid should free up the hinges. |
|
|
|
Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Oct 4, 2013 17:16:31 GMT
The story goes that during World War Two Australian pilots stationed in the Pacific decided that what would make living in the hot climate tolerable was a little ice cream, so they decided to make some of their own. They filled a spare drop tank with condensed milk, sugar and coco power. Attached it to a fighter and then the pilot took off and flew around at high altitude for a few minutes before coming back to base and landing, where the personal now had a nice tank of ice cream they could share. There is a similar story about pilots (usually Australian, again) who strapped cans of beer or even bottles of wine under the wings and took off for a short flight so they could drink a cool beverage after landing. From what I can recall from the MBFC thread, there are no 'official' documents about this - it all seems to be stories being recounted after the war, which is understandable as this would probably classify as unreasonable use of military equipment*. Nor do I recall anything specific about how this was meant to work, as in I'm not clear if they mixed all the ingredients together on the ground or if they rigged up something to stir the contents while the aircraft was in flight. (*Although arguably threatening to drop Fosters Larger on the Japanese would be a great deterrent...) This idea was originally posted on the MBFC years ago, but I only remembered it about ten minutes ago. I'm wondering if anyone remembers that thread, or can provide any additional information in this or related myths? Sorry I just found this thread but I have to say dropping Fosters on the Japanese during WWII would have constituted a violation of the Geneva Convention – we may be {person of questionable parentage}s sometimes but we aren’t barbarians! |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Oct 6, 2013 15:59:13 GMT
Ice Cream Report - Test 2, In Progress
The second batch of ice cream just went into the freezer.
For this one, I blended together one can of evaporated milk and four envelopes of Swiss Miss cocoa mix (the richest stuff I could find at the store). The rest of the recipe was unchanged.
I noted that this batch was a lot runnier than the first. I don't know if the jam from the first test was helping bind everything together, or if it's just the additional water in evaporated milk.
Taste/consistency results will come after my Sunday game.
|
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Oct 7, 2013 7:11:00 GMT
Ice Cream Report - Test 2, In ProgressThe second batch of ice cream just went into the freezer. For this one, I blended together one can of evaporated milk and four envelopes of Swiss Miss cocoa mix (the richest stuff I could find at the store). The rest of the recipe was unchanged. I noted that this batch was a lot runnier than the first. I don't know if the jam from the first test was helping bind everything together, or if it's just the additional water in evaporated milk. Taste/consistency results will come after my Sunday game. Looking forward to it Quick question: Is this in any way easier/cheaper to make than regular home made, cream based ice cream? |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Oct 7, 2013 14:01:13 GMT
I know I've used a hand-crank ice cream maker when I was a kid visiting Dad's side of the family, but that was long enough ago that I'm not certain. It's definitely easier than sitting on the back porch cranking away, but these days most home ice cream makers are electric. And Update on Test 2I didn't run a full taste test; the friends I was cat-sitting for this weekend (and who are on Team Taste-Test) were a bit wiped when they got home. I took a quick scoop for myself, and while the flavor was good I did notice a little graininess to the mouth-feel. We'll run a full taste-test later this week and I'll see if the others notice this. I suspect the cocoa mix might not have completely dissolved in the room-temperature evaporated milk. I could probably improve this by heating the milk/cocoa mix, but if it goes into the freezer hot there's further for it to go to reach "frozen". Sticking the pot into the fridge to cool off isn't an option -- if that base had refrigeration, they wouldn't have been freezing ice cream in their warplanes. I might try putting the pan into a basin of cool water (which would have been available) to cool it off. Of course, if you'd handed some WWII soldiers in the Pacific Theater a bowl of something frozen and chocolatey, would they have cared about a little graininess? |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Oct 7, 2013 14:14:32 GMT
Something that occurs to me -- if the MBs test this, they'll need a "control" ice cream to compare it to. They could slap a MythBusters label on a carton of ice cream, but this is probably a test where a company wouldn't mind their name being associated with a MB test. After all, they're being held up as the standard to judge the plane ice cream. Ben and Jerry's has the name recognition, and eCreamery might be willing to make a hot chocolate-flavored ice cream for the test. But if they go with a local ice cream shop, they could bring in one of the staff as an ice cream taste expert without paying airfare and hotel. A search at DexOnline for "gourmet ice cream in San Francisco, CA" got me 14 hits. |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Oct 8, 2013 13:01:48 GMT
Somehow I don't think the whole idea of "MythBusters Brand" this or that has anything to do with protecting the companies that make whatever it is they use in any test. I think it's more of an integrity thing that they won't endorse any brand of anything. There are more than enough allegations of them "not doing it right" with more or less every myth they test as it is. Think of how bad that would become if they started showing specific brands on the show. They'd be accused of "pandering to sponsors" with every result they came up with and would completely lose their credibility.
|
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Oct 8, 2013 14:01:34 GMT
Somehow I don't think the whole idea of "MythBusters Brand" this or that has anything to do with protecting the companies that make whatever it is they use in any test. I think it's more of an integrity thing that they won't endorse any brand of anything. There are more than enough allegations of them "not doing it right" with more or less every myth they test as it is. Think of how bad that would become if they started showing specific brands on the show. They'd be accused of "pandering to sponsors" with every result they came up with and would completely lose their credibility. Mythbusters have always tried to steer clear of product placement for various reasons. Even Hyundai don't get named on the show even though they have provided a number of cars for the shows use, and the build team did a number of adverts for them which were aired during MB episodes a few years back (US TV). Most of the time this is simply a legal/cost issue, as companies can and will ask for money for their logo to be seen or mentioned on screen. Other times it is because companies will object if their product is used or associated in a negative or dangerous light - imagine if MB tested the 'exploding cell phone' myth that was often posted on Discovery and they showed an iPhone. Even if they busted the myth Apple would have a fit at them even implying that their product could explode*. Now image what would happen if they showed that yes, you could make an iPhone explode - even if that was under exceptional circumstances such as leaving it in an oven.... Last of all the specific brand is usually besides the point - the diet cola and Mentho's myth didn't require a specific brand of diet cola. (*Remember that people may tune in halfway through, turn off or as is often the case just not pay attention or recall specific details. In this theoretical case people would remember the iPhone and say the fact that you could make a cell phone 'explode', but miss or forget that the phone they got to explode wasn't in fact the iPhone but another brand. A case in point was a recent article on the website Cracked, which claimed that it was possible to catch an arrow. They used the MB episode as proof of this, leaving out the minor details that MB busted the myth in a real world setting - ie when the archer is not aiming where the 'ninja' asks him to and firing at a full draw.) Just a thought here, but most of the accounts of airmen making ice cream seem to be coming from warmer climates - the Mediterranean and Pacific. I'm not sure what the average temperature would be here but it may well be significantly higher than in your home. A related thought is that it is possible that they were using local water supplies, in which case they were probably boiling the water before using it for cooking or drinking. (The accounts always seem to be of forward/temporary bases that would not have running water.) It is possible therefore that they dissolved the coco in warm or near boiling water before mixing it with the evaporated milk. This is the kind of detail that might well have been overlooked when discussing it in later years. This might also have been a good way to hide what they were doing from official eyes, since they could claim that they were just making hot, milky, sweet coco for the men to drink - which of course they could well have served should anyone too official turn up on base. They might have mixed this openly in an old (and cleaned) ammo box with the 'official' claim being that the men could them dip their mugs in to get a drink. Then when no one was looking they could shut the box and run over to put it into a waiting aircraft when official eyes were turned elsewhere. |
|
), and a couple I couldn't pry open at all. No point in using one to make ice cream if you can't get the lid open enough to scoop the ice cream.
