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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 30, 2013 8:14:53 GMT
In England, a lot of the world, including U£A, are a bit surprised at the fact we dont over-use nail guns. We find that its a LOT easier to tote a hammer and pocket full of nails over the site rather than a honking great heavy gun. Plus, with the experienced guys, they can put in more nails per hour more accurately than a nail gun can?... As in, you have to stop and re-load every so often, recharge the power source etc.... You get a nice rhythm up with a hammer. You know, that sounds like a show idea.... |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 30, 2013 8:51:21 GMT
What how many nails can you put in, nail gun vs hammer?...
Ok, go for it, but, make it a roof, roofing slates, you have to start from the ground, take any power with you, and the roof has to be at least 30degree slope.
You may have help to pass the slates, but you have to place them yourself, and MINUS points for every slate damaged....
If its just how many can you bang in in the bit of wood in front of you with no obstacles, nail gun wins with its rate of fire...
If its how many concrete "Bolts" can you put in, no competition...
But having to climb in and out of awkward spaces?...
..Restricted swinging room, that is a good space to put a nail gun....
30 ft up with a 20ft power cord..... maybe not so good?....
Then on to fine finish furniture, and pins....
No nail gun can EVER be as accurate as a pin hammer, if you require millimetre accuracy when trying to get a neat finish.
It may only be the back of the cabinet, but, I know its there, and I do care that much....
And as it stands, I may place the nails with the small nail gun, but I finish them with the pin hammer.
Finally, wooden nails.
How you goina do THAT then?....
Wooden frame buildings in England traditionally have wooden pegs holding them together...
They last hundreds of years, so it definitely is a tested working procedure?...
The pegs, being wooden, contract and swell with moisture at the same rate as the wood they are holding, so, in effect, you get a better hold.
And you dont even need glue.
Traditionally you can also used kiln dried pegs, that are drier when you start, so once in place they will absorb some moisture and swell slightly, that way, the day after you put them in they are a tighter fit.
OK, I accept your challenge....
Other than electric saws, which must be available to both, which method can put up a building that withstands a good 80mph gale the fastest.... power tool vs manual....
Building being anything from garden shed to site hut to whatever, but must be no longer than a single days expected building time, dont want to spend too long on that?....
The one swinging the hammer must be a seasoned hammer and nail builder....
The one with the nail gun must have been trained properly for safety reasons.
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Post by the light works on Oct 30, 2013 14:28:53 GMT
okay, so you want to put up a nail gun against a hammer in specific fields where only meatheads would use a nail gun.
okay, but then you must put on exterior sheathing. I've seen guys nail it off at a rate of about 5 seconds per stud; using a gun.
here we have some crews that use framing guns, and crews that hand nail. the hand nailers don't make any claims to being faster, but they do point out that hand nailing tends to draw the joint together, while gunning it leaves the joint just as it was before the nail went in.
but the only roofing they shoot down is composition. anything else gets hand nailed.
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Post by the light works on Oct 31, 2013 14:42:02 GMT
so... when do you suppose they will show season 16?
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 2, 2013 6:11:22 GMT
Why?...
We use Bricks and Mortar here, whats with the sheathing bit?...
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Post by the light works on Nov 2, 2013 12:07:22 GMT
Why?... We use Bricks and Mortar here, whats with the sheathing bit?... we have more trees than rocks and mud available for building in our area. we also build with the EXPECTATION of winds in excess of 100 MPH. (our record, so far, is 125MPH) suffice it to say, the second little pig didn't know how to build a stick frame house properly. we build our exterior walls with 2X6 lumber, then sheathe it with 4X8 sheets of plywood, nailing it off every two inches at the edges and every 4 inches in the field. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 3, 2013 8:15:28 GMT
Racial Memory...
Your lot are descended from our lot, and in that time, we had the ability to build wooden frame houses that are still standing today even.....
The anti- mud and brick thing is strange.
You have Mud, you need Straw, and some other bits, you make a clay like substance and bake it.
This way you get Bricks.
Then you get all Lego, and build a house... that WILL withstand 100 mph gusts and winds....
Strange that you lot never adopted the Brick thing where Bricks and Concrete are almost attractive when building a wind-proof house?....
WIND proof, hurricane is just another matter, I dont think anyone can "Proof" against hurricane or tornado without something that resembles a castle with walls 10ft thick and the rest?....
Not saying it cant be done, but economically?...
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Post by the light works on Nov 3, 2013 13:55:58 GMT
Racial Memory... Your lot are descended from our lot, and in that time, we had the ability to build wooden frame houses that are still standing today even..... The anti- mud and brick thing is strange. You have Mud, you need Straw, and some other bits, you make a clay like substance and bake it. This way you get Bricks. Then you get all Lego, and build a house... that WILL withstand 100 mph gusts and winds.... Strange that you lot never adopted the Brick thing where Bricks and Concrete are almost attractive when building a wind-proof house?.... WIND proof, hurricane is just another matter, I dont think anyone can "Proof" against hurricane or tornado without something that resembles a castle with walls 10ft thick and the rest?.... Not saying it cant be done, but economically?... keep in mind that when Oregon was first settled, the people's republic of Portland was nicknamed "stumptown" because they had to get all the trees out of the way before they could start building. step one of getting material to make bricks is to remove the lumber from the site. once we've cut down the trees, we might as well just build the house out of those. it also takes a lot less total material when your walls are 10% structural material and 90% trapped air insulation. our houses also weigh a lot less than masonry construction; which means our foundations float better - and yes, that HAS become an issue in some houses I have worked on. and for the last bit - here, we build with the expectation that someone will decide to knock the house down and build something different in 60 years or so. |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 4, 2013 7:39:39 GMT
Wouldn't it be unfair to pit an experienced hammer-worker against someone 'with training' and a nail gun? I'm pretty sure there are experienced nail gunners out there who know exactly how to work that puppy so it's a lot faster than a hammer. Pit experience against experience or inexperience against inexperience and you get a fair test. Anything else would be a waste of time.
Which leads me to the next question: Would this really be interesting to watch? The MythBusters timing two professional builders as they go at it with their tools of choice? Not likely. I know everyone on the team are seasoned builders, but there's 'seasoned' and then there's 'has done it every day for X years for a living'. The two don't really compare.
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 4, 2013 9:28:09 GMT
Ahhh... but there is the rub... It is definitely not that we DONT know how to use the gun, we just choose not to. The experienced chippie, woodworker, etc, knows when and when not to use the gun, but in England, if it does the job, we dont always daydream a way to super-charge the thing, bigger is not always better, which is why I have two different sized nail guns?... My smaller pin-hammer to drive "Tacks" in, where the bigger one would leave a hole you could drive a bus through?... I also use a tack hammer that has the weight of a hammer but does staples,  Thats the but-end showing where you load the staples. Its to do delicate jobs like roofing felt underlay, sheeting etc, and carpeting. Yes I could use the Electric, but, I choose not to, because some times manual is better.... Especially if you have no power socket close to hand. Owning a hammer gun that can drive a half diameter bolt six inches into solid reinforced concrete does not make you an expert, no, but knowing when NOT to use it, well, your getting there?... I would say that anyone who is experienced in Framing is going to know how to use the hammer.... Its almost unfair on the "Experienced" nail-gunner to have to go up against one of our trained chippies, who chooses to use the hammer instead. Its not about who is first to put the nails in, its also about how long it would take you to reduce it to a pile of rubble as well?.... My Dad used to say dont put the nail in until you know you wont want it back again. |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 4, 2013 9:42:23 GMT
I never said that someone who uses a hammer most of his day doesn't know how the different types of guns work, nor did I imply that an experienced gunner doesn't know how to work a hammer. I just said that if you use one conciderably more than the other you're going to be better/faster with the more used tool than you are with the less used one and therefore, pitting an experienced hammer user against 'someone with training' using a nail gun would be unfair as the two levels of experience don't match up.
If you want to do the test properly you should pit someone with, say 10 years of experience doing a certain job primarily using a hammer against someone with 10 years of experience doing roughly the same job but primarily with a nail gun. They should also both be used to working with roughly the same time constraints, since it wouldn't be fair for the guy with the hammer if he was used to working after an 'it's done when it's done/haste makes waste' philosofy and the nail gunner was more 'quantity over quality/it needs to be finished yesterday' oriented or vice versa.
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 4, 2013 10:04:39 GMT
But you have just described the two different "Trades", and WHY they over-use nail guns in some places..........
The Nail gunner is usually wanting to put many nails in quickly at the expense of accuracy.?...
The Hammer guy knows when you need to be accurate, and resorts to a nail gun when you dont.
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Post by the light works on Nov 4, 2013 14:47:21 GMT
And you are also still working on setting up an unfair test. what you are proposing is kind of like trying to define whether a bicycle is a better vehicle by having making a competition between an experienced bicycle messenger and a guy who just got his IDW license to deliver 10 letters to 10 different businesses, each using the vehicle associated with their profession.
so let's make a more even race. have an experienced finish carpenter who works with a hammer and nails up against a finish carpenter who uses guns, and see which gets the job done fastest and needs the least putty to finish the work. (and yes, I say "guns" because the finish carpenter I work with the most has at LEAST 4 guns just for putting on trim)
and if precision is so important then why are you using a hammer tacker instead of a squeeze-grip staple gun?
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 5, 2013 9:52:54 GMT
Its the same length as a pin hammer.
If I can hit a pin with a pin hammer, how much more precise do you want?....
In the right hands, its as precise as needs be, and its not the right tool for millimetre precise like putting the back on a set of draws... then I would use the squeeze trigger staple gun, or the electric small pin one, which can be that precise....
Ok, you want fair....
In this case, take two experienced chippies, which I am sure I already stated, both with their own preferences, one brings his Gun, the other his hammer....
I am not looking for inexperience with the tool of choice, I am looking for experienced woodworkers.
What I am saying is that in the UK, many choose NOT to use the gun.
And one hammer can knock in many different sized nails... no need for multiple guns.....
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Post by the light works on Nov 5, 2013 15:21:10 GMT
only up to a point. a slater uses a different hammer from a mason, who uses a different hammer from a framer, who uses a different hammer from a finish carpenter, who uses a different hammer from some electricians, who use a different hammer from a tin bender.
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 6, 2013 9:14:13 GMT
...You have a point, the right tool for they job... But the slaters hammer will be on the roof anyway.... It has a chisel edge to trim slates. You cant trim a slate with a nail gun?....  The only way this will settle is a practical demonstration, which is, I think, what we are all asking for. I still say that the guy with a Hammer will create the better finish.... Otherwise, why do I see UK chippies armed with the Hammer?... They must have a good reason for that. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 6, 2013 15:11:44 GMT
...You have a point, the right tool for they job... But the slaters hammer will be on the roof anyway.... It has a chisel edge to trim slates. You cant trim a slate with a nail gun?.... The only way this will settle is a practical demonstration, which is, I think, what we are all asking for. I still say that the guy with a Hammer will create the better finish.... Otherwise, why do I see UK chippies armed with the Hammer?... They must have a good reason for that. if they are hanging slate, it is because you don't hang slate with a nail gun. hence my comparison of delivering 12 messages with an IDW truck. here, framers carry a hammer for fine tuning joints and for complicated corners, but considering they are going to be driving a few hundred nails framing the house and up to a few thousand doing the sheathing and siding; only the most dedicated ones don't reach for the gun. I think I went through about 500 nails siding my house - and much of it was supporting the siding with one hand and nailing it with the other; which is the other benefit of a gun. |
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Post by Antigone68104 on Nov 6, 2013 15:25:53 GMT
Axe vs. SkullDuring the Buster Special, it was noted that balsa wood had a comparable breaking point to human bone. I propose that simulated heads be made by wrapping balsa wood in the dragonskin flesh analog, thereby allowing multiple "skulls" to be created; a bag of movie blood could be placed on the other side of the balsa wood to represent the brain. Adam can be presented with a variety of axes and hatchets, which he will use to strike at each simulated skull; a strike that results in the weapon being covered in blood will count as a "kill". A record will be kept of both how many swings it takes to get a "kill" and how long it takes him to make the kill & recover the weapon. I finally got the chance to watch this episode with some friends last night. One suggestion they had was to get a baseline for how long it takes Adam to pull an axe out of a skull, then rerun the same test as in the episode ... but with a pause between each zombie-kill equal to that time. Say it takes Adam two seconds to retrieve his axe. In the retest, after each hit Adam would count off two seconds before he would be allowed to swing at the next zombie. And I thought that was poplar they used, not balsa? |
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Post by the light works on Nov 6, 2013 15:39:00 GMT
Axe vs. SkullDuring the Buster Special, it was noted that balsa wood had a comparable breaking point to human bone. I propose that simulated heads be made by wrapping balsa wood in the dragonskin flesh analog, thereby allowing multiple "skulls" to be created; a bag of movie blood could be placed on the other side of the balsa wood to represent the brain. Adam can be presented with a variety of axes and hatchets, which he will use to strike at each simulated skull; a strike that results in the weapon being covered in blood will count as a "kill". A record will be kept of both how many swings it takes to get a "kill" and how long it takes him to make the kill & recover the weapon. I finally got the chance to watch this episode with some friends last night. One suggestion they had was to get a baseline for how long it takes Adam to pull an axe out of a skull, then rerun the same test as in the episode ... but with a pause between each zombie-kill equal to that time. Say it takes Adam two seconds to retrieve his axe. In the retest, after each hit Adam would count off two seconds before he would be allowed to swing at the next zombie. And I thought that was poplar they used, not balsa? you're right - it was poplar or something like it, rather than balsa, that they used for his "bones"n (for some reason my brain is returning aspen, but no guarantees I have the right wood) |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 7, 2013 8:57:50 GMT
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