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Post by c64 on Apr 15, 2014 10:23:10 GMT
I have to strongly dispute that, as I can show you evidence of sudden failure of USB memory from all over the place, and the one thing they have in common is alteration of a file on USB, they are inherently unstable. Maybe you should stop buying the most inexpensive Flash Drives you can find  I don't have that much experience using USB flash drives with windows since I am a Linux guy but I can't remember loosing files without messing with the drive (unplugging), the entire drive died (happened only twice so far and only after massive R/W usage) or a total system crash while writing. I also use USB flash drives for embedded systems I make, especially data logging where data is constantly written to the drive. Even with power failure, I never had any complete data loss, you could always read almost all the data written before the failure had happened. All embedded systems I made in the past 10 years run on SD cards or USB pen drives. And I often use USB pen drives since they are much easier to handle by the user. Also you can use "outdoor" pen drives which are waterproof and waterproof USB port jacks. I often have to because biologists and especially animal attendants have the habit to drown anything electronic. |
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Post by kharnynb on Apr 15, 2014 10:47:57 GMT
Quality ssd is generally not very prone to corruption. Flash does sadly not have a good error-correcting abilities.
On the other hand, solid state media isn't great at constant rewriting, which is why swap drives etc. should never be on an ssd.
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Post by c64 on Apr 15, 2014 17:36:28 GMT
which is why swap drives etc. should never be on an ssd. Correct. Smartphones and Tablets which have nothing than SSD and Linux which detects "nothing but SSD" uses a RAM Disk for all things which require lots of write cycles. The changed data is then written to the SSD when the computer shuts down. Windows just keeps overwriting the very same files over and over again. A USB Pendrive is ruined in a few weeks. A SSD however uses a different physical sector every time a logical one is overwritten. This spreads the wear over the whole free space of the SSD. If the SSD is "full up to the brim", it can't do that and the same physical sectors become stressed and fail. If you use Windows on an SSD, it's a good idea to keep a few gigabytes unformated so you can't make the SSD use the same physical sectors over and over again. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 15, 2014 20:32:37 GMT
I've been designing embedded systems that use flash memory for over 10 years now. With over 10,000 systems in the field, I've never had a problem with the flash memory. Most of the problems with USB memory drives can usually be traced to the USB connector itself. They are junk. If you even get a millisecond disconnect while writing to the memory, it can wipe the entire memory. In the systems I design, the memory is soldered right onto the circuit board so there is no connector problems.
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Post by kharnynb on Apr 15, 2014 20:40:00 GMT
not to mention, usb voltage on ports tend to fluctuate rather heavily due to people filling up unpowered hubs with devices that need power.
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Post by ironhold on Apr 15, 2014 21:33:27 GMT
Well, I did something stupid.
When I was on yesterday, the system downloaded a bunch of Windows updates.
When I went to fire it up today, I got a notice stating that it had to configure the updates. Once the configuration was done, it said that it was shutting down.
30 minutes later, I was still getting the "shutting down" message.
Fearing that something had stalled or choked, I powered the system down.
It took another 30 minutes for the system to "revert" the changes made by the updates because things read as not having been completed.
So I'm back in "safe mode with networking" for the time being. I hope that external hard drive I ordered comes in soon, as the sooner I can back everything up the sooner I can get this thing into a repair shop.
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 15, 2014 22:31:13 GMT
I'd get that thing backed up as quick as possible. It really sounds like you have some kind of hardware issues going on if it couldn't even complete the updates. Maybe a bad memory or something.
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Post by ironhold on Apr 15, 2014 22:59:48 GMT
I have most of my key documents already backed up.
The big thing is my iTunes downloads; I've got several hundred dollars in music, movies, and television shows on my system, and the combined total represents too much in the way of memory for any one USB key or other such memory device to handle.
You see, I have a large quantity of audio and video cassettes that are clogging up my room. My plan was to digitize as many of them as possible so that I could get rid of them, but for a lot of those movies and albums iTunes was the only place that had them.
The other thing I was looking at was "In the event that I have to relocate in order to take a new job, there is a chance that my finances will be tight for the first little while; I'll be taking my laptop with me, and so with all I have on here I can easily keep myself entertained until I can afford to pay for cable."
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 16, 2014 2:21:16 GMT
If you legitimately purchased the music, movies, etc from iTunes, you should just be able to download them again at no charge if any is lost. In fact, iTunes allows you to keep all your purchased items on their cloud server so you can call them up from different devices.
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 16, 2014 6:47:16 GMT
The huge updates may be the roll up of the final release of all updates as Windows removes support.
You will need to update your anti-virus FIRST, before you accept those updates, as they may upset your anti-virus.
Back to Flash/SSD, so we have agreement that solid state drives are not that good as page files.... they loose data...
Right.
Back to my point about notoriously bad at loosing data as you edit?....
If you edit a live file whilst its on Solid drive, its no more than the same thing as a swap file.(Or Pagefile as its also known)
There is software available that will error check and correct....
But that is also in its infancy.
And it AINT windows.
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Post by c64 on Apr 16, 2014 12:05:52 GMT
not to mention, usb voltage on ports tend to fluctuate rather heavily due to people filling up unpowered hubs with devices that need power. Sure, I especially like those 8-port hubs which don't come with an external PSU option! 1 port = 500mA max 1 USB device is guaranteed to get at least 100mA 8 Ports × 100mA → 500mA something, so it should work, right!? In the early 90s, I had met someone at the University of Bonn who had just arrived from the US and asked me if I could print him some documents because he didn't had a printer yet. He told me that he owned a very expensive HP printer and called HP tech support if he could take it with him to Germany because they use 230V. They told him: "The printer needs 110V so 230V ought to be enough!" I had such a good laugh that I gave him a fully fitted NEC Pinwriter P6 for free. |
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Post by c64 on Apr 16, 2014 12:16:20 GMT
Back to Flash/SSD, so we have agreement that solid state drives are not that good as page files.... they loose data... Right. Back to my point about notoriously bad at loosing data as you edit?.... If you edit a live file whilst its on Solid drive, its no more than the same thing as a swap file.(Or Pagefile as its also known) There is software available that will error check and correct.... But that is also in its infancy. And it AINT windows. If you use an external USB HDD, you have a much greater risk at loosing data than using an USB Flash drive (pen Drive or SSD). The HDD requires a lot more power and it takes a lot longer to write. So if the connection (power or data) has problems, the chances that it will destroy your file system are a lot greater! It's not a problem of Flash or not, it's the connection and electronics which cause trouble. When an external HDD or SSD "dies" or produces corrupt files, in almost all of the cases I had encountered, it was just the USB adapter board which was faulty, the HDD or SSD itself was OK and could be used as a built in drive, in a NAS rack or with a new USB board just fine. I had bought lots of bad external drives very cheap which I disassembled and had plugged the actual HDDs into my server rack and they always worked just fine for a very long time. |
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Post by c64 on Apr 16, 2014 12:33:05 GMT
I've been designing embedded systems that use flash memory for over 10 years now. With over 10,000 systems in the field, I've never had a problem with the flash memory. Most of the problems with USB memory drives can usually be traced to the USB connector itself. They are junk. If you even get a millisecond disconnect while writing to the memory, it can wipe the entire memory. In the systems I design, the memory is soldered right onto the circuit board so there is no connector problems. What I often do is soldering a Micro SD adapter directly onto the board. Those adapters are much more reliable than actual SD slots and you can still unplug the micro SD just fine to plug it into a cardreader and extract the data. When there are intense vibrations present, the common SD slots start to have bad connections or the entire card slides out of the slot. This had never happened to the micro SD adapters when soldered onto the PCB. Originally, I just used those adapters for prototyping because they come for free with the micro SD cards but it turned out that this method is far more reliable than buying real card slots.  And if you need to use a sturdy connector, use these:  The "Neutrik NAUSB-W-B" can be a, A or B connector, you just take it apart and turn around its core to convert it. Inside your device, you can use a common USB cable with A or B plug. Those things are great, just make sure that you use superglue or silicon for sealing to permanently attach the plug inside your device. I have two of those connectors in the dashboard of my car and I never had any problems, even if a heavy USB device is plugged in and the connector has to suffer from all the weight and vibrations from driving. Someone even managed to snap his MP3 player in half when it was plugged into one of those connectors. The connector seems not to have taken any damage at all! I had used the same connectors for a device for a "bird logger" which keeps a record which bird returns when and how long to the nest to feed their young. Those zoologists have managed to destroy the loggers in many very unusual ways, but the USB connecter was always fine. |
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Post by c64 on Apr 16, 2014 12:43:19 GMT
And by the way, those connectors work with common cables or USB devices as well as with a special bayonet connector which is waterproof and prevents accidental unplugging. It also keeps a good connection during vibrations up to 20G! You can replace the actual USB connector from the bayonet plug with a short USB pendrive. Using some casting compound and the bayonet plug, you can make "super sturdy pendrives" very cheap and easily which can be still plugged into a PC with an extension cable. And those you can sell optional for a very high price!
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Post by ironhold on Apr 16, 2014 15:07:42 GMT
If you legitimately purchased the music, movies, etc from iTunes, you should just be able to download them again at no charge if any is lost. In fact, iTunes allows you to keep all your purchased items on their cloud server so you can call them up from different devices. Truth is, based on prior encounters with Murphy's Law I've come to favor having back-ups of my back-ups. For example, about a decade ago I was in the process of copying a file from its place on a computer to a USB key when a rogue glitch happened (I think it might have been the power flickering) that resulted in both the original file and the copy I was trying to update being lost. It's just an issue with peace of mind, to be honest. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 17, 2014 16:23:05 GMT
I refuse to do the "cloud" thing. I want to know where my data is stored and who has access to it. I also don't like the idea of having to have internet access just to run my word processor or what ever program.
A few years ago, Google lost a bunch of emails. They said it only affected less than 1% of their customers. I wonder how the 2 million customers that made up that less than 1% felt. That's why I download all my emails from the email server and keep them on my computer. I have over 7 years of emails archived. At least I know where they are at.
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Post by c64 on Apr 17, 2014 21:04:23 GMT
I want to know where my data is stored and who has access to it. But we all do know that! Attachment DeletedIf they would use their capability as "cloud computing", they could fund a lot of governmental projects while their targets give them their data voluntarily. You know the gestures and kind of voice they use in Sesame Street when saying a very important word? I've noticed that a lot of professional IT guys do that when mentioning "the cloud". Pure sarcasm! But the lastest trend - at least here in Germany - is the "personal cloud" which is nothing but a common NAS system, but with WAN capability so you access your own NAS HDD at home from everywhere you want. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Apr 17, 2014 21:23:07 GMT
Glad to see others are as skeptical of The Cloud as I am.
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Post by kharnynb on Apr 17, 2014 21:40:35 GMT
I've started to use "younited", a service by F-secure, since that is a local company, saving their data on Finnish servers(meaning they have to follow finnish security laws, instead of google or amazon with US laws).
Also, they are in the security business, not in the ad-sales business.
But I still wouldn't trust it as a back-up, I just like being able to share between my devices, even when away. Cheaper than getting a comparible NAS setup.
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Post by c64 on Apr 17, 2014 22:25:29 GMT
But I still wouldn't trust it as a back-up, I just like being able to share between my devices, even when away. Cheaper than getting a comparible NAS setup. Depends. A NAS is not much more expensive than a common external HDD. And with Gigabit LAN, it's quicker than USB2.0. And the WAN capability is almost for free. In fact the DSL Routers of the major German provider have NAS capability, just plug in a USB Pendrive or external HDD. The only reason why I don't use this is that I don't trust FAT32 or NTFS file systems and the USB 2.0 port of the router is way too slow for my demands. So I just bought a 3TB "personal cloud" which was in fact even cheaper than a bare 2TB HDD from a local dealer. Of course I don't trust it's firewall since I have no idea how it works and have my own server supervising the HDD. |
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