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Post by the light works on Nov 18, 2014 15:14:42 GMT
It.... Cant.... Be.... Lard...... no no no nononononononononononononononononononononononono(ad infinitum) Lard is animal fat. End of conversation?..... It bloody well should be the end of the conversation. If you fry something in Lard, you choose animal fat. If you fry something in vegetable oil, its vegetable oil, and as hard as you try, its Still vegetable.....So why try and disguise it?... If its fat, its fat..... the most common substitution of vegetable shortening for lard is in making pastry and such - it is another case of it is cheaper and pretty passable. - actually, most people who cook in oil cook in peanut oil - which handles heat even better than lard. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 19, 2014 10:55:02 GMT
Even so, if you are making a beef pie, why the need to go for a Vegetableist option for the pastry.....
Unless you are making vegetableist pies.
Which are just wrong anyway.
I am remembering a past incident where someone was inviting people to their planned dinner party.....
He was a good friend, and a damn good cook, so, I was not just invited, I was required to help.
One time he was there inviting another good friend of ours, describing what we would be cooking, and someone else in the crowd asked "Whats the vegetarian option?.."...
The reply was "Dont Come"...
We dont do vegetarian options, this is a home cooked meal, if you want some, come along.
We also dont do allergy free food... we dont know how.
It was a topic of discussion at that party.. how should we deal with specialised dietary requests.... did we have a moral need to look at that.
The consensus was, and this is late 80's, that at that time, if you had special dietary needs, you should provide for yourself, and not make demands on people who have no responsibility for you.
If you are saying "We are doing chicken dinners", and someone asks what else we got, we have perfect rights to say we dont have anything else, and we have no moral obligation to provide an option "Just in case"
We understand that some people have chosen to be vegetarian.
Fine.
Thats their choice.
We do not understand why, and we dont need to understand why, but its not important to us.
We would not turn up at their meal and demand that they cook us steak....
Now we ask for the same respect.
Level playing field, thats all we ask for.
If you want to demand we cook YOU vegetables, then we demand you cook steak for us... ok?...
We are not in any way anti-vegetabelist, we just dont want that argument.
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Post by the light works on Nov 19, 2014 15:16:14 GMT
shortening sells for less money and can sit in the pantry until used. and since most of the pies I make have fruit instead of meat, they are inherently vegetablist. Attachment Deleted |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 20, 2014 8:56:31 GMT
You use "Shortening" in "sweet" pastry?...
If I make pastry for sweet objects its usually all butter... (Or butter type spreads...)
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Post by the light works on Nov 20, 2014 16:06:53 GMT
You use "Shortening" in "sweet" pastry?... If I make pastry for sweet objects its usually all butter... (Or butter type spreads...) it depends on the particular recipe - butter has a taste of its own where lard and shortening do not. |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 21, 2014 23:33:20 GMT
Even so, if you are making a beef pie, why the need to go for a Vegetableist option for the pastry..... Unless you are making vegetableist pies. Which are just wrong anyway. I am remembering a past incident where someone was inviting people to their planned dinner party..... He was a good friend, and a damn good cook, so, I was not just invited, I was required to help. One time he was there inviting another good friend of ours, describing what we would be cooking, and someone else in the crowd asked "Whats the vegetarian option?.."... The reply was "Dont Come"... We dont do vegetarian options, this is a home cooked meal, if you want some, come along. We also dont do allergy free food... we dont know how. It was a topic of discussion at that party.. how should we deal with specialised dietary requests.... did we have a moral need to look at that. The consensus was, and this is late 80's, that at that time, if you had special dietary needs, you should provide for yourself, and not make demands on people who have no responsibility for you. If you are saying "We are doing chicken dinners", and someone asks what else we got, we have perfect rights to say we dont have anything else, and we have no moral obligation to provide an option "Just in case" We understand that some people have chosen to be vegetarian. Fine. Thats their choice. We do not understand why, and we dont need to understand why, but its not important to us. We would not turn up at their meal and demand that they cook us steak.... Now we ask for the same respect. Level playing field, thats all we ask for. If you want to demand we cook YOU vegetables, then we demand you cook steak for us... ok?... We are not in any way anti-vegetabelist, we just dont want that argument. I'm inclined to agree. Although, if I know beforehand that one of the people I've invited has an allergy or something and I truly want that person to come, I will provide something special for them. After all, if I knew before I invited them that they had a peanut allergy and I'm not planning on serving anything that's not fried in peanut oil, why bother inviting them in the first place? That's just setting both yourself and the other person up for grief in my book. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 22, 2014 2:44:48 GMT
There is a one VERY good reason for not automating 'fast food' that no one has mentioned; Allergies.
What happens if, say, someone who is allergic to tomatoes orders a burger without tomatoes?...the automatic machine might not include them in the order, but that doesn't mean that some tomato residue isn't going to be in the machine and put into said burger. End result; Everyone from the poor sod who took the order to the people who decided to install the machine are going to get sued...or worse charged with manslaughter.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 22, 2014 3:07:39 GMT
There is a one VERY good reason for not automating 'fast food' that no one has mentioned; Allergies. What happens if, say, someone who is allergic to tomatoes orders a burger without tomatoes?...the automatic machine might not include them in the order, but that doesn't mean that some tomato residue isn't going to be in the machine and put into said burger. End result; Everyone from the poor sod who took the order to the people who decided to install the machine are going to get sued...or worse charged with manslaughter. Chances are that a human is more likely to cross contaminate the burger than a machine that is designed specifically not to do that. But you're right, everyone WILL be sued, regardless. After all, we have to make sure the lawyers can afford the food. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 22, 2014 8:01:21 GMT
There is a one VERY good reason for not automating 'fast food' that no one has mentioned; Allergies. What happens if, say, someone who is allergic to tomatoes orders a burger without tomatoes?...the automatic machine might not include them in the order, but that doesn't mean that some tomato residue isn't going to be in the machine and put into said burger. End result; Everyone from the poor sod who took the order to the people who decided to install the machine are going to get sued...or worse charged with manslaughter. Chances are that a human is more likely to cross contaminate the burger than a machine that is designed specifically not to do that. But you're right, everyone WILL be sued, regardless. After all, we have to make sure the lawyers can afford the food. And by "The Food" we mean hamburgers made from Kobe beef. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 22, 2014 9:01:05 GMT
Just a moment on Allergies....
There was a news article recently where a school asked all of the parents abnd children to all be super vigilant against Peanuts.
One of the students had a difficult condition of super allergic and may have an incident if they came in contact with someone ho had been in contact with Nuts....
I have a problem with that...
Fine I wont feed you nuts, I can deal with that, but demanding that neither I or my kids have ANY contact with nuts?..
I feel that is a bit too much responsibility for me... or my family.....
If the child is that intolerant, how about out elsewhere in the community?..
Where I sympathise with the condition, shouldnt the responsibility be with the person suffering?
How the (beep) can you devoid a whole community of peanuts, and peanut products, just for one person?.. thats almost impossible isnt it?...
Where does this fit in?...
I have suffered more than one incident where those preaching vegetableists have attempted to "Convert" the masses and decry a whole place because there are meat products or animal product around..
I delight in winding them up now.
One such incident was when leaving McD's, one of my workmates was tackled by one, he pointed to the shoes they were wearing, Doc Martins, and calmly states... "Oh... Leather Shoes... Hypocrite".....
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Post by the light works on Nov 22, 2014 12:06:23 GMT
Just a moment on Allergies.... There was a news article recently where a school asked all of the parents abnd children to all be super vigilant against Peanuts. One of the students had a difficult condition of super allergic and may have an incident if they came in contact with someone ho had been in contact with Nuts.... I have a problem with that... Fine I wont feed you nuts, I can deal with that, but demanding that neither I or my kids have ANY contact with nuts?.. I feel that is a bit too much responsibility for me... or my family..... If the child is that intolerant, how about out elsewhere in the community?.. Where I sympathise with the condition, shouldnt the responsibility be with the person suffering? How the (beep) can you devoid a whole community of peanuts, and peanut products, just for one person?.. thats almost impossible isnt it?... Where does this fit in?... I have suffered more than one incident where those preaching vegetableists have attempted to "Convert" the masses and decry a whole place because there are meat products or animal product around.. I delight in winding them up now. One such incident was when leaving McD's, one of my workmates was tackled by one, he pointed to the shoes they were wearing, Doc Martins, and calmly states... "Oh... Leather Shoes... Hypocrite"..... I can be sympathetic to someone so sensitive that they are essentially allergic to peanut cooties. - and in a school situation, well, can we really demand that they quarantine themselves from school? and if it is an elementary school, I think it is reasonable to ask other parents to be aware that kids of that age don't exercise good judgement. on the other hand, in my area, we had a rash of peanut allergy calls at one of our elementary schools. - and it was a teacher. |
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Post by OziRiS on Nov 22, 2014 23:25:59 GMT
Just a moment on Allergies.... There was a news article recently where a school asked all of the parents abnd children to all be super vigilant against Peanuts. One of the students had a difficult condition of super allergic and may have an incident if they came in contact with someone ho had been in contact with Nuts.... I have a problem with that... Fine I wont feed you nuts, I can deal with that, but demanding that neither I or my kids have ANY contact with nuts?.. I feel that is a bit too much responsibility for me... or my family..... If the child is that intolerant, how about out elsewhere in the community?.. Where I sympathise with the condition, shouldnt the responsibility be with the person suffering? How the (beep) can you devoid a whole community of peanuts, and peanut products, just for one person?.. thats almost impossible isnt it?... Where does this fit in?... Someone's overreacting here, and seeing as I'm only hearing one side of the story, I can't be sure who it is. I'm sure the kid isn't so allergic that you having a Snickers bar and touching your child's school bag afterwards on friday night is going to kill the allergic party the following monday. It's probably more along the lines of your kid has a Snickers bar, licks the other kid's face and 10 minutes later someone has to call an ambulance. If the kid really IS so allergic that your friend can't have a peanutbutter sandwich if he's planning on visiting you within a 5 day time period for fear of you passing the dreaded peanut residue onto your child who then takes it to school and kills someone, the parents of that kid need to wrap him in bubble wrap and throw him in the basement for safe keeping. For his own safety, he shouldn't be allowed out into the world. |
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 24, 2014 7:57:58 GMT
The debate on what schools can and cant ban when it comes to nuts is quite alive and kicking, any search engine will give you pages of results on the topic.
But...
My question is, if someone had an allergy to Potato products, would they also be banned?..
Nuts in all forms and legumes, being where peanut family resides, are all natural products, and considered a valid food source.
Can you really get a world fee from such products?..
If the answer is a reasonable no, then there is a problem.
If the kid believes their world and school to be free from such produces, they will drop their guard, and if just one incident?...
Surely the problem then resides with the parents who should provide such care.
And yes, the bubble wrap theory is valid...
Think of it as a reverse Ebola.... the kid is now being protected from the outside world.
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Post by the light works on Nov 24, 2014 14:57:36 GMT
The debate on what schools can and cant ban when it comes to nuts is quite alive and kicking, any search engine will give you pages of results on the topic. But... My question is, if someone had an allergy to Potato products, would they also be banned?.. Nuts in all forms and legumes, being where peanut family resides, are all natural products, and considered a valid food source. Can you really get a world fee from such products?.. If the answer is a reasonable no, then there is a problem. If the kid believes their world and school to be free from such produces, they will drop their guard, and if just one incident?... Surely the problem then resides with the parents who should provide such care. And yes, the bubble wrap theory is valid... Think of it as a reverse Ebola.... the kid is now being protected from the outside world. the question is where the line is reasonably drawn between "the child is too young to understand thet Reeses Pieces (for example) have peanut in them/ the friends are too young to comprehend that anything with peanut in it will make their friend very sick" and "the child is old enough that he/she should be capable to take responsibility for his or her own allergy." as I implied before, the upper edge of that is somewhere around the age of an elementary school teacher. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 25, 2014 0:13:38 GMT
The point was that cross-contamination would be unavoidable with an automated system, short of disassembling the entire machine and cleaning it. Cross contamination in kitchens can be avoided by using a different knife and chopping board.
Which leads to another good reason that automatic machines would be a knightmare; Cleaning.
In a normal kitchen you can shove the tools into a dishwasher during a shift and work surfaces can be cleaned quickly and easily at the end of a shift. In fact it is quite possible to clean the work surfaces during a shift if you really have to - say because someone managed to spray the secret sauce over the counter.
With an automatic machine you'd damn near have to take the entire machine apart every few hours, especially if you were dealing with any type of sauce which is going to dry and clog the openings. Chances are also fairly good that even industrial dishwashers would have serious problems cleaning such parts no matter how they are loaded. So you'd end up spending an hour taking the machine apart, another half-hour to and hour putting everything though the machine multiple times and checking to make sure everything really is clean. Then you have to put the machine back together because the morning isn't the best time to discover that that one vital part is missing, and that requires you let the parts dry for another half an hour or so. So figure that instead of maybe an hour of clean up after a shift you have two too three hours of additional work...or an hour and a half's work of work and another hour or so of being paid to stand there and wait for the dishwasher to finish for the third time.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 25, 2014 0:41:53 GMT
The point was that cross-contamination would be unavoidable with an automated system, short of disassembling the entire machine and cleaning it. Cross contamination in kitchens can be avoided by using a different knife and chopping board. Which leads to another good reason that automatic machines would be a knightmare; Cleaning. In a normal kitchen you can shove the tools into a dishwasher during a shift and work surfaces can be cleaned quickly and easily at the end of a shift. In fact it is quite possible to clean the work surfaces during a shift if you really have to - say because someone managed to spray the secret sauce over the counter. With an automatic machine you'd damn near have to take the entire machine apart every few hours, especially if you were dealing with any type of sauce which is going to dry and clog the openings. Chances are also fairly good that even industrial dishwashers would have serious problems cleaning such parts no matter how they are loaded. So you'd end up spending an hour taking the machine apart, another half-hour to and hour putting everything though the machine multiple times and checking to make sure everything really is clean. Then you have to put the machine back together because the morning isn't the best time to discover that that one vital part is missing, and that requires you let the parts dry for another half an hour or so. So figure that instead of maybe an hour of clean up after a shift you have two too three hours of additional work...or an hour and a half's work of work and another hour or so of being paid to stand there and wait for the dishwasher to finish for the third time. I'm sure these would be minor problems for a good industrial engineer to overcome. Most of the prepared foods that we buy now are made on a continuous process or batch process assembly line and never touched by human hands. Soups, frozen dinners, chips, cookies, bread, ice cream bars, you name it. They're all made by machines. Machines can be built to be easily cleaned or even self cleaning. We can almost completely build an automobile with automated robots, a hamburger should be a piece of cake (pun intended). |
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Post by the light works on Nov 25, 2014 2:16:40 GMT
The point was that cross-contamination would be unavoidable with an automated system, short of disassembling the entire machine and cleaning it. Cross contamination in kitchens can be avoided by using a different knife and chopping board. Which leads to another good reason that automatic machines would be a knightmare; Cleaning. In a normal kitchen you can shove the tools into a dishwasher during a shift and work surfaces can be cleaned quickly and easily at the end of a shift. In fact it is quite possible to clean the work surfaces during a shift if you really have to - say because someone managed to spray the secret sauce over the counter. With an automatic machine you'd damn near have to take the entire machine apart every few hours, especially if you were dealing with any type of sauce which is going to dry and clog the openings. Chances are also fairly good that even industrial dishwashers would have serious problems cleaning such parts no matter how they are loaded. So you'd end up spending an hour taking the machine apart, another half-hour to and hour putting everything though the machine multiple times and checking to make sure everything really is clean. Then you have to put the machine back together because the morning isn't the best time to discover that that one vital part is missing, and that requires you let the parts dry for another half an hour or so. So figure that instead of maybe an hour of clean up after a shift you have two too three hours of additional work...or an hour and a half's work of work and another hour or so of being paid to stand there and wait for the dishwasher to finish for the third time. I'm sure these would be minor problems for a good industrial engineer to overcome. Most of the prepared foods that we buy now are made on a continuous process or batch process assembly line and never touched by human hands. Soups, frozen dinners, chips, cookies, bread, ice cream bars, you name it. They're all made by machines. Machines can be built to be easily cleaned or even self cleaning. We can almost completely build an automobile with automated robots, a hamburger should be a piece of cake (pun intended). so if, say, you were allergic to mayonnaise. please explain the process by which, if you selected no mayonnaise, your hamburger would be cross contaminated with mayonnaise. are you thinking the machine might be in drone mode and ignore the no mayo string, and glop some on, anyway? and what is to stop them having a second set of food contact fittings - closing shift removes the day's fittings, replaces them with tomorrow's, and puts them in the dishwasher. |
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Post by Antigone68104 on Nov 25, 2014 3:29:52 GMT
It depends on how the system is built. If condiments share a spigot, then anyone ordering a burger with no mayo after someone else ordered one with risks contamination. Even if each condiment has a separate spigot, spills/drips happen. If I'm ordering a fish sandwich at a fast food place, I ask for no tartar sauce. There's been times the kitchen actually reads the slip and doesn't put tartar sauce on my sandwich ... but I find a smear of tartar sauce on the outside of the bun.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 25, 2014 3:58:35 GMT
It depends on how the system is built. If condiments share a spigot, then anyone ordering a burger with no mayo after someone else ordered one with risks contamination. Even if each condiment has a separate spigot, spills/drips happen. If I'm ordering a fish sandwich at a fast food place, I ask for no tartar sauce. There's been times the kitchen actually reads the slip and doesn't put tartar sauce on my sandwich ... but I find a smear of tartar sauce on the outside of the bun. Give the engineers some credit. If the machine is designed to not drip tarter sauce (or mayo or mustard or special sauce) it will not drip tarter sauce (or mayo or mustard or special sauce.) We trust machines to mix our pharmaceuticals but we won't trust one to assemble a hot dog? And speaking of hot dogs, the hot dog itself as well as the bun it sits in was probably already made by a machine. And it didn't accidentally mix in any peanuts. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 25, 2014 12:31:28 GMT
Because the machine doesn't have to handle peanuts at any point, and in fact the factory probably doesn't produce anything that has peanuts in it so has no reason to have any nuts in the building*.
(*Other than management)
If you look at other factories that do handle produce that contain nuts they place warnings on their products to indicate that there is a risk of those products containing traces of nuts. This is most evident for candy bars, as the same machines that make Snickers bars also make Mars bars. But you can also see such warnings on other products, from ready meals to bread.
Pharmaceuticals are usually dry products, not wet (and wet would include burgers), and the production lines are usually only making one specific type of drug at a time between which they are being cleaned out.
Yes, it would be possible to make a machine that eliminates the possibility of cross-contamination. But such a design would be more complex, physically larger and very expensive. In the first case the more complex the machine gets the more likely it is that something will stop working, the more skilled you'd need your workforce to be to deal with any problems in house and the longer any repairs/cleaning would take.
Companies want and need machines that can be opperated and maintained by someone right out of school with minimal training and which are not significantly larger than the existing equipment. They don't want something that you need a degree in engineering to maintain and which is the size of a truck.
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