bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 8, 2012 16:34:07 GMT
Just got me thinking... what about the possibility of an ice cannon? Completely impractical of course, and no possibility of more than one firing - but would it be possible to make a working (at least once fireable) cannon out of ice?
bio
{Confirmed that the myth has been tested and will air on 1st March 2014 in the US - CM}
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 8, 2012 23:09:10 GMT
One thing to take into consideration when thinking about making a glass (or ice) cannon would be the practicality of it. Essentially, the cannon might need glass walls that are six inches or greater thick. Even if it's only a 3 feet long, it would be a lot of weight. The greater the weight, the greater chance it is dropped, broken, and never actually tested. Yeah, I said the ice cannon would be utterly impractical - I couldn't think of one single reason to make one, apart from my curiosity about whether it could be done. The same with a glass cannon, I presume... bio |
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Post by chriso on Nov 8, 2012 23:27:12 GMT
Danget, was making a post on burying the cannon, when I noticed PK beat me to it!
On the subject of ice cannon, wouldn't it simply fall victim to the same things that doomed the ice bullet?
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 0:33:41 GMT
Danget, was making a post on burying the cannon, when I noticed PK beat me to it! On the subject of ice cannon, wouldn't it simply fall victim to the same things that doomed the ice bullet? Depends on if the barrel remained intact long enough to build up enough pressure to get the shot moving. If it did it would at least result in something solid exiting the muzzle. |
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Nov 9, 2012 3:18:46 GMT
What if we made a hybrid cannon? A hollow-walled glass cannon barrel filled with water and frozen. I wonder...
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Post by freegan on Nov 9, 2012 3:27:48 GMT
What if we made a hybrid cannon? A hollow-walled glass cannon barrel filled with water and frozen. I wonder... Water expands when it freezes. The pressure from this may be too much for the glass envelope. |
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 9, 2012 4:39:19 GMT
On the subject of ice cannon, wouldn't it simply fall victim to the same things that doomed the ice bullet? Yep, that's exactly what I'd like to see. bio |
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 9, 2012 4:41:12 GMT
What if we made a hybrid cannon? A hollow-walled glass cannon barrel filled with water and frozen. I wonder... Water expands when it freezes. The pressure from this may be too much for the glass envelope. That risk could be eliminated by calculating how much less water should be used that, expanded, would exactly fill the glass casing  bio |
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Post by memeengine on Nov 9, 2012 7:32:50 GMT
Water expands when it freezes. The pressure from this may be too much for the glass envelope. That risk could be eliminated by calculating how much less water should be used that, expanded, would exactly fill the glass casing bio You'd then be faced with the fairly complicated engineering problem of sealing the water inside the glass with a vacuum in the expansion space. Also you'd need to control the freezing process to ensure that ice exactly filled that space. If you didn't then you'd have varying pressure levels in the ice & glass that would increase the chance of local failures in both the materials. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 13:08:18 GMT
One small problem that you seem to have missed about an ice cannon - the powder would melt the ice, absorb the water and become useless.
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Post by the light works on Nov 9, 2012 15:48:37 GMT
One small problem that you seem to have missed about an ice cannon - the powder would melt the ice, absorb the water and become useless. easily solved with a plastic bag. |
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Post by memeengine on Nov 9, 2012 16:56:32 GMT
One small problem that you seem to have missed about an ice cannon - the powder would melt the ice, absorb the water and become useless. Not necessarily. There's no good reason to use loose powder in a cannon. In practise it was usually in cloth or paper cartridges, because it's easier to handle that way. Since neither of those materials has particularly high thermal conductivity, I think you'd have time to load the powder, load the wadding and shot and fire the gun before any significant melting had occurred. Also, gunpowder has to absorb a significant amount of water for it to become useless. One of the doubts about the gunpowder plot was that, because the barrels had been stored in a damp basement, the powder would have failed to explode. However, recent testing (including a demonstration on that programme where they blew up a replica parliament building) has shown that damp powder is capable of being used effectively. |
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 9, 2012 16:59:52 GMT
That risk could be eliminated by calculating how much less water should be used that, expanded, would exactly fill the glass casing bio You'd then be faced with the fairly complicated engineering problem of sealing the water inside the glass with a vacuum in the expansion space. Also you'd need to control the freezing process to ensure that ice exactly filled that space. If you didn't then you'd have varying pressure levels in the ice & glass that would increase the chance of local failures in both the materials. Well, for sure - but I never said it would be an easy task, I oly said it could be done - the guys have that black pocket ref that seems to have the formula for everything  (Just kidding of course.) bio |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 17:48:36 GMT
For barrels of powder sure, since you'd still have some dry - or fairly dry - powder in the middle of the barrel.
For cannons however damp powder was a major problem, since you have a smaller volume of powder even a small amount being exposed to damp could render the powder effectively useless.
While the powder-charge for cannons was (at least in muzzle loaders) contained in a leather or canvas bag. The bag still needed to be punctured while loading in order to ignite the powder. This could cause problems if the cannon is melting, especially since there will be a gap between the cannon being loaded and being fired during testing.
Damp would also eliminate the possibility of using a conventional touch hole or burning fuse - not a major problem as MB would be able to use an electronic detonator. But the melting issue would still need to be kept in mind, and the time between the gun being loaded and ready to fire and being fired would need to be kept as short as possible lest the powder around the fuse absorb too much water and be rendered inert.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Nov 9, 2012 18:08:15 GMT
Working off the idea of the experiment being performed in a sealed environment for safety, couldn't the sealed environment be cooled to some temperature closer to freezing than the outside environment? Fire and combustion will still occur at the lower temperature, but there is a greater chance of preventing failure before the shot is sent off in thsi scenario. The only bugaboo I can think of in this would be potential issues with an electronic ignition if they chose to go that rout, but this can also be problem-solved.
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 18:17:17 GMT
MB are not going to be able to find an indoor location that is temperature controlled AND where the owners are going to let them mess around with a cannon of any description.
The best they could do, and a possible alternative, would be to test up in Alaska or similar cold location during the winter. This would at least remove the possibility of the cannon melting while they wait for the director to finish messing around with the cameras.
Oh, and before I forget.
Historically Ice cannons were made for a party at the Winter Palace in Russia. I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that these cannons were fired, or were ever intended to be, but there is the historical aspect to the idea.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 9, 2012 18:23:39 GMT
Though the idea was mine, it was only a spinoff afterthought of the glass cannon myth. But now I guess it would be time to define the set of criteria a bit more thoroughly.
First of all, what parts of the cannon should be made of ice tpo call it an "ice cannon"? I guess we can agree that if the barrel is made of ice we can call it an ice cannon even if the rest isn't made of ice.
Now, would teh barrel made completely of ice - nothing but ice I guess. Not steel reinforced ice, not ice encased in any other stuff etc... Solid ice and that's it.
Next, we should define what the successful use of such a cannon would be? I say one successful shot - meaning the cannonball leaves the barrel and travels some distance showing the potential of being destructive and lethal - would do the trick, regardless of what condition the cannon itself would be in after the shot.
Any thoughts?
bio
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 18:26:32 GMT
The only thought would be to 'allow' the use of a metal cradle to support the weight of the cannon, so it doesn't crack under its own weight.
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bioLarzen
Demi-Minion
"I reject your avatars and substitute my own."
Posts: 86
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Post by bioLarzen on Nov 9, 2012 18:26:50 GMT
MB are not going to be able to find an indoor location that is temperature controlled AND where the owners are going to let them mess around with a cannon of any description. The best they could do, and a possible alternative, would be to test up in Alaska or similar cold location during the winter. This would at least remove the possibility of the cannon melting while they wait for the director to finish messing around with the cameras. Oh, and before I forget. Historically Ice cannons were made for a party at the Winter Palace in Russia. I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that these cannons were fired, or were ever intended to be, but there is the historical aspect to the idea. Testing it in Alaska sounds like a great idea. bio |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 9, 2012 18:28:36 GMT
MB are not going to be able to find an indoor location that is temperature controlled AND where the owners are going to let them mess around with a cannon of any description. The best they could do, and a possible alternative, would be to test up in Alaska or similar cold location during the winter. This would at least remove the possibility of the cannon melting while they wait for the director to finish messing around with the cameras. Oh, and before I forget. Historically Ice cannons were made for a party at the Winter Palace in Russia. I've not seen or heard anything to indicate that these cannons were fired, or were ever intended to be, but there is the historical aspect to the idea. Testing it in Alaska sounds like a great idea. bio It would also fit with the historical ice cannon, in that these were build and 'used' during the Russian winter. |
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