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Post by the light works on Nov 20, 2020 14:21:20 GMT
The attack on Pearl was devastating. Almost utterly undefended. Still, there remained enough fuel reserves for Doolittle's air raid on Japan & Midway. Roosevelt (who was not ever a military man) simply took a gamble; one that some Naval commanders didn't necessarily agree with. And, also, before I forget about it, clearing the pacific was deemed necessary to get a clear lock on their fleet's movement. And they DID NOT go undetected. This proof is now several pages back, but newspapers in Hawaii were aware Japan's fleet was on the move -- so too then did U.S. Navy. The article on November 30, 1941 states that they expected the fleet to attack by the weekend, December 6, 1941. That means the fleet has about 1,100 to 1,500 miles to get wherever they are going within 6 days at fleet speed. Since the Japanese actually DID make an attack on Hawaii by December 6th, as predicted, that means they were 1,500 miles from Hawaii. Having already gone 3,000 miles by the time they were detected, ALREADY PAST PHILIPPINES. See? Maths are useful. The messages regarding their specific location (the message Kimmel talks about ... a lot!) and also the information during that meeting with the Japanese in Washington were all delayed, ... intentionally. but as cyber has pointed out, twice, the only reason those fuel reserves survived is because none of the japanese pilots thought to send few rounds in the direction of the tanks. also, clearing the ocean gave them a clear look WITH WHAT? |
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Post by rmc on Nov 20, 2020 14:33:43 GMT
Ask them. That's what the records I've provided state. Cleared to provide an unobstructed view of the Japan fleet.
Besides, it was YOU guys declaring that everyone thought the Japanese could not go undetected... so, I guess I'll ask YOU since that was your previous stance: detect them WITH WHAT?
But, as usual, all these posts you make showing you don't read what I provide, buried those things such that nobody can easily find my reference anymore.
Figuring the fleet had six days travel time remaining puts them half way to Philippines, (a week too early for an attack if 6 days starting from their own port), or it puts them on top of Hawaii which IS where they wound up.
Your pilots didn't think to hit fuel and Roosevelt didnt get alarmed enough about that potential loss, given he was probably underestimating a lot (his likely thinking in terms of battleships like almost every other regular American, not heeding the advice of the Navy, etc.)
Really SHOULD wait to see how Biden resolves this. That's all of us.
But, here's something that'll make you cheer: my internet is very bad these last couple of days. It takes an hour to log in, if possible.
So, The Last Word, have at it:
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Post by the light works on Nov 20, 2020 16:37:28 GMT
Ask them. That's what the records I've provided state. Cleared to provide an unobstructed view of the Japan fleet. Besides, it was YOU guys declaring that everyone thought the Japanese could not go undetected... so, I guess I'll ask YOU since that was your previous stance: detect them WITH WHAT? my previous stance was that they thought they could detect the battleships coming within shelling range of Hawaii; so with the ground based radar stations AT Hawaii. which supports my contention that the japanese success in the attack was a result of Washington thinking the Japanese couldn't possibly launch a successful attack against Hawaii. here's a brain melter for you: if Biden DOES absolve the command guys at Hawaii on the grounds of Washington's failure to provide intel, or as you put it "denial of intelligence" couldn't that be interpreted as having enough evidence to back up a claim that the denial was due to failure, not to premeditation? of course, he COULD surprise us all and announce that it was all a plot; but the bottom line is; nobody is denying that they were gearing up for war, and nobody is denying that the official policy was they expected a japanese first strike, and planned for that to be the trigger point for war in the pacific - just like it's pretty likely that a german first strike would have been a trigger point for war in the atlantic; and there's absolutely noting wrong with choosing to make your opponent make the first move. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 20, 2020 17:08:03 GMT
Right. I'd be all inline for that, except for one thing... Kimmel declaring he was set up.
And he was no small time Admiral. Do you realize what it takes to have achieved his assignment? Kimmel was tops. Too much a class act to declare he was set up, unless there was something to it. Defeated generals and the like often find dishonor making false accusations and excuses for their mistakes. They usually accept their court martial like a man, if deserved.
If it weren't for that, I'd look at it just the way you all are.
If Biden clears his name, it becomes a lot more an issue for Washington of 1941.
It's been TOUGH for Biden too. He's had this on his plate all through the Obama era.
Now he's in place to set some things straight with regard to U.S. military spending and the military industrial complex if we look at everything.
By the way, if folks in Hawaii were informed that Japan was nearing Hawaii it would take Washington to order Navy assets to disregard that. The news is why Kimmel had moved ships to the northern island, but was ordered (by Washington) to return them to Pearl. Kimmel had heard the same thing the Hawaians heard via newspapers. But, Washington was all about, "disregard and ignore that, admiral Kimmel... because, don't worry. We're in negotiations with them, they aren't going to hit us"
But, that was a lie, and not just some miscalculation. Because FDR stalled everywhere he could until the attack was taking place. Do you think the president was like, "return the fleet to Pearl, admiral. Japan must not see our fleet at the ready. That could be viewed as a hostile response! Stand down so we can better negotiate..."
Uh, yeah, right... this isn't Star Trek.
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 20, 2020 23:35:15 GMT
So according to your logic; Roosevelt, who served as the assistant secretary of the Navy for 7 years and loved the Navy to the point that he appointed someone from the opposing party as head of the US Navy. Decided to ignore any and all warnings from Naval commanders for...reasons...and even though he listened to his military commanders the rest of the time. Roosevelt though purely in terms of Battleships. Conveniently ignoring that the only reason the US Navy HAD carriers and air wings was because, against objections and advice from practically everyone in the Navy, he refused to scrap that part of the Navy during the demobilization after WW1. Even though he was Secretary of the Navy and had over 100 books on the Navy he was somehow unaware the ships needed fuel. Was unaware that the US Navy was building massive underground fuel storage facilities at Pearl because they saw the vulnerability of the above ground storage tanks. And also ignored warnings about such vulnerability which would have been brought up; www.stripes.com/news/pacific/navy-s-underground-fuel-tanks-in-hawaii-are-impenetrable-to-attack-and-that-s-the-problem-1.604488Was willing to 'allow' an attack in order to have an excuse to start a war with Japan. Even through all it would take is two strafing runs from one aircraft to make it impossible to prosecute that war. This due to the fact that the fighting would be taking place well outside the range at which US ships could operate and fight without running out of fuel before they got there. (The next nearest Naval Base was at San Diego, some 2500 miles from Hawaii. US Destroyers of that period had a maximum range of about 5000 miles...So they could just about get to Pearl before having to turn around and go back.) Basically you are arguing that Roosevalt was either replaced for a few months by a duplicate, who was a dribbling idiot and feckless gambler who lucked out. Or Roosevalt had conspired with the Japanese, somehow, to ensure that the fuel tanks would not be attacked. ***** Not one bit of 'evidence' you have provided supports a conspiracy. It supports what actually happened; Understandable errors, miscommunication and expected problems (which would continue to appear throughout the Naval conflicts*). Kimmel himself may well have been a victim of a conspiracy, but a political one by senior officers in Washington who were trying to deflect blame for what appears to be their micromanaging of one of their base commanders and screwing up in the process. I'd ALSO note that for such a conspiracy to have taken place a hell of a lot of people would have had to remain silent for decades after the fact. As the saying goes 'Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead'. Even if they stayed silent during the war, you'd expect SOMEONE to have said something years later. *You may as well claim that the Battle off Samar, where the Yamato and her task force managed to slip though American defenses and faced off against Escort carriers and Destroyers, was a conspiracy. That was also a case of misjudgements on both sides, bad intelligence, poor communication and ultimately a very fortunate outcome for the US when Yamato inexplicably decided not to press the attack and left. Instead of hitting the US in a very painful spot that would have stopped them in their tracks for quite sometime. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 20, 2020 23:50:07 GMT
1913 appointment to being assistant secretary of the Navy, appointed by Woodrow Wilson, and FDR never actually ever enlisting in any way, such that his Naval position was purely a civilian one, and his understanding of said Navy then goes more to his understanding of battleships 1913 era, and where said battleships believed to be merely supported by aircraft carriers as many of you said before, was a common belief throughout the country, including many circles within the Navy until approaching 1940. (And by that I mean key military commanders were thinking differently by 1940)
Viewing war from this context and knowing he needed "Japanese to strike first" puts a lot more weight into Kimmel's declaring the specifics were denied him.
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Post by rmc on Nov 20, 2020 23:56:35 GMT
In fact, the write up on the civilian position makes it sound more akin to CIA, having a certain political slant to it, with it being involved with intelligence and politics.
Certainly makes him think he's qualified to call the shots over others possibly more qualified than him in a 1940s war, when his experience is actually from the 1910s.
In fact, that makes him WORSE than the general public, having no military experience. Bias from world war one was what many of your arguments were based on previously.
And his reasoning was likely based on that. "reasons" Yeah. Reasons like ENDing much of the pro fascism that had started in the 1930s. After all, the world had been mighty worried about communists coming into being. A well-stocked anti communist like good old Adolf the fascist was just what American companies and King Edward were into then. And, then we needed THAT to end... "reasons" uh huh.
What isn't known is what he thought the Japanese could do, or what his Navy needed with regard to time, apparently.
FDR loved the Navy? He, as a politician, loved to USE the Navy. Move country politics with it. He never risked his life with others on a combat team, serving directly in the Navy. Oh, and to appointing anyone from another party between world war one and two. Our two party system hadn't quite evolved into outright hatred that is seen today.
Anyway, this has been discounted as conspiracy theory for some time. But, with Biden's involvement over the last ten years, the tide is possibly flowing another way.
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 0:55:48 GMT
note the post this is in response to has been amended. I don't dispute that Roosevelt was in an awkward position where anti communist sentiment was struggling with concern about Hitler's imperialism.In fact, the write up on the civilian position makes it sound more akin to CIA, having a certain political slant to it, with it being involved with intelligence and politics. Certainly makes him think he's qualified to call the shots over others possibly more qualified than him in a 1940s war, when his experience is actually from the 1910s. And his reasoning was likely based on that. "reasons" What isn't known is what he thought the Japanese could do, or what his Navy needed with regard to time, apparently. Anyway, this has been discounted as conspiracy theory for some time. But, with Biden's involvement over the last ten years, the tide is possibly flowing another way. and yet for him to have been able to know the japanese were going to launch a carrier based attack using a new torpedo that could be deployed in shallower water than any torpedo had been able to be deployed in, before; and make the decision to allow the attack to proceed, he would have to BE more qualified than anybody else. because the claim that he was trying to micromange the navy based on his experience in the teens is an argument for bad judgment; not conspiracy.
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 1:02:04 GMT
How do you figure FDR new about shallow-running torpedoes, to be used by the Japanese?
I had stated that we don't know what he understood about the Japanese capabilities, but that, like many not directly serving in certain parts of Naval command, likely felt it represented less than what it actually was.
That FDR would expect things based on his experience (1913, 14, etc) coupled with new concepts too. But, I think he underestimated the Japanese. That would be reasonable. That would allow him to allow them.
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 1:31:23 GMT
How do you figure FDR new about shallow-running torpedoes, to be used by the Japanese? I had stated that we don't know what he understood about the Japanese capabilities, but that, like many not directly serving in certain parts of Naval command, likely felt it represented less than what it actually was. That FDR would expect things based on his experience (1913, 14, etc) coupled with new concepts too. But, I think he underestimated the Japanese. That would be reasonable. That would allow him to allow them. I don't figure he knew about them. I figure he didn't; and also that he didn't think the japanese could make a successful attack against Pearl Harbor. thus he would be biased to misinterpret intelligence that didn't specifically say otherwise. which would mean the only conspiracy was to scapegoat the locals for Washington's intelligence failure. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 1:46:21 GMT
Once again in plain English.
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 2:00:42 GMT
Once again in plain English. my argument is that he DIDN'T know the Japanese could hit pearl harbor. I think he wasn't up on new naval tactics and thinking only in terms of old tactics. therefore his lack of a decision to forward the intelligence in a timely manner was a mistake, and the only conspiracy involved was to shift the blame for the mistake. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 2:31:53 GMT
my argument is that he DIDN'T know the Japanese could hit pearl harbor. Perfect. Then when he heard they were 6 days out, his using HIS version of naval methodology (from his 1913 era) includes quickly fumbling together ideas about allowing it to happen. That would explain it not turning out too well... because "hasty traps" can and often do backfire. Likely what he was being told too. And, we aren't talking about a lot of people either. So, yes, in CIA culture many secrets are still classified and buried. What I've said is that FDR underestimated the Japanese. He underestimated their punch, their use of planes rather than battleships, etc. Not being sure if they could hit Hawaii in the first place is also part of that too, couldn't it be? |
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 2:59:22 GMT
my argument is that he DIDN'T know the Japanese could hit pearl harbor. Perfect. Then when he heard they were 6 days out, his using HIS version of naval methodology (from his 1913 era) includes quickly fumbling together ideas about allowing it to happen. That would explain it not turning out too well... because "hasty traps" can and often do backfire. Likely what he was being told too. And, we aren't talking about a lot of people either. So, yes, in CIA culture many secrets are still classified and buried. What I've said is that FDR underestimated the Japanese. He underestimated their punch, their use of planes rather than battleships, etc. Not being sure if they could hit Hawaii in the first place is also part of that too, couldn't it be? yes, thinking they couldn't successfully hit Hawaii is part of underestimating them. now, what I'm saying is for it to be a conspiracy to allow the attack, he would have to have known they could successfully hit Hawaii. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 13:36:30 GMT
yes, thinking they couldn't successfully hit Hawaii is part of underestimating them. now, what I'm saying is for it to be a conspiracy to allow the attack, he would have to have known they could successfully hit Hawaii. Perfect. The Japanese fleet was spotted just about 3,000 miles east of Japan. We know this because Hawaian newspapers reported that this fleet could attack in 6 days (report came out in Honolulu news on November 30th, saying they expected an attack by the following weekend). And, right on the money that fleet attacked Hawaii December 6th. So, if the fleet had 6 day's worth of travel remaining before a December 6th attack, and was hitting the Philippines instead, it would need to have been 1,500 miles or less away from the Philippines if that were the destination. And, that puts the whole fleet in the opposite direction from Hawaii (or Midway) such that when 6 days expire there's no way the fleet appears anywhere near Hawaii right on the dot. The point is with 6 days of travel left, the people reporting the warning would have needed to know where exactly they were to be that accurate. It's been said all throughout this that doctrine stated the Japanese couldn't move to the east without being detected. Not so much that japan had no navy, but that such navy couldn't get near the United States WITHOUT being detected. And Japan WAS detected just as predicted, the location and date were estimated and Kimmel tried functionally to move into position to repel, but WAS ORDERED to return to Pearl since negotiations were in effect. Kimmel expected the news to be correct, because it made sense with respect to U.S. instigating tensions with Japan, but needed exact orders from the war department TO CONFIRM. he didn't get that. His orders were to shut down, and be still. Stop asking questions. FDR had six days to formulate a hasty plan, knew the time and place of the potential attack, and also had conferences with the Japanese and secretly wanted said Japanese to strike first, all the while in "negotiations" to supposedly avert war, believing in his view, from HIS experience, that Japan wasn't what they actually were. Further telling Kimmel to stand down. FDR played us all. He played the Japanese, he played the navy, he played the American people, he played the Canadians, British and Russians too! And, it was so simple even he could manage. All it required was somehow entering the war at the right time. How so did he easily play everybody you ask?! Once his involvement in the war had been established, he made deals that would make 'ol Nope nope blush. For one, once the British were on their knees requesting assistance, he agreed to assist on some rather striking conditions. For one, he'd agree to assist just so long as Americans took the relatively easy assignments. What!!!? You say? That's right. On D-Day, while Canadians and British were expected to turn east and north, facing swamps, low lands, Tiger Tanks, and maybe even a few King Tigers, Americans turn south into France, where, by comparison, sipped fine wine and ate cheese. Then there was the matter of payment for the U.S. agreeing to enter the war. If America went, it would take its choice of patents from the British. So, FDR robbed the future of the United Kingdom too while feeding them to the sharks. Oh, and even though there are propaganda films showing Americans flying into Russia to help Russia fight NAZIs, that didn't happen until the war in Europe was basically decided, like almost 1945 or something. For the most part, WWII was United Kingdom and Russians against the Germans with America ready to mop up and take home the prize. (Meaning other Europeans fought too, but were forced to surrender. Unlike the U.K. & Russia) So, yes. Roosevelt WAS an assistant Secretary to the Navy, fully into honing his CIA-like skills, operating the war department like a Putin-intelligence-only warrior. But, was not himself a combat warrior, looking at things from anything other than a purely political view! No. Not every admiral loved Roosevelt. Those that supported Kimmel did not find what the president did as pleasing. Perhaps it was necessary in a way, but it WAS NOT pleasant. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 16:00:03 GMT
according to other sources, 6 days before Pearl Harbor, the US knew most of the japanese fleet was off Thailand, and had no idea where the carriers were. www.baltimoresun.com/news/bs-xpm-1991-12-01-1991335028-story.htmland don't' forget that the US also ponied up around $50 billion in materiel for the war effort. which, when adjusted for inflation is more in 4 years than we've spent in Iraq and Afghanistan in 20. and right now, you're portraying Roosevelt as both incompetent and capable of playing 4 dimensional chess. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 16:16:45 GMT
My estimate of Roosevelt is that he underestimated what he thought the Japanese could do. That's not incompetent based on what he knew and believed about the Japanese, world wars and ships, battleships as well.
Playing 4 dimensional chess merely requires picking an appropriate time to play AND what conditions with which you're willing to play? Is that how easy 4D chess is? Really?
How did Honolulu news get the attack right? From your article Kimmel was trying to find the Japanese carriers after say November 26th, being dissatisfied with what he was given thus far. Hardly an environment where one "falls asleep" days later. So, your article seems to be missing some big bits... Plus, it goes to show how important carriers were to Kimmel. The notion that American carriers didn't make it back to Pearl due to "weather" tells me Kimmel may have gone ahead and protected an important part of the fleet even AGAINST orders to return all assets to Pearl. Kimmel deserves a medal too.
He moved his assets and was then told to move them back. Radio tracking wasn't the only method available for finding the Japanese fleet. Spies reporting to Washington, and direct conversations with Japanese negotiators were also available. FDR had been pressing the Japanese for some time for all of this. He knew what to ask, without asking directly. He could tell what was going on. It was, after all, his trap he'd set.
Anyway that doesn't matter as much as seeing what Biden plans on doing.
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Post by the light works on Nov 21, 2020 20:19:13 GMT
My estimate of Roosevelt is that he underestimated what he thought the Japanese could do. That's not incompetent based on what he knew and believed about the Japanese, world wars and ships, battleships as well. Playing 4 dimensional chess merely requires picking an appropriate time to play AND what conditions with which you're willing to play? Is that how easy 4D chess is? Really? How did Honolulu news get the attack right? From your article Kimmel was trying to find the Japanese carriers after say November 26th, being dissatisfied with what he was given thus far. Hardly an environment where one "falls asleep" days later. So, your article seems to be missing some big bits... Plus, it goes to show how important carriers were to Kimmel. The notion that American carriers didn't make it back to Pearl due to "weather" tells me Kimmel may have gone ahead and protected an important part of the fleet even AGAINST orders to return all assets to Pearl. Kimmel deserves a medal too. He moved his assets and was then told to move them back. Radio tracking wasn't the only method available for finding the Japanese fleet. Spies reporting to Washington, and direct conversations with Japanese negotiators were also available. FDR had been pressing the Japanese for some time for all of this. He knew what to ask, without asking directly. He could tell what was going on. It was, after all, his trap he'd set. Anyway that doesn't matter as much as seeing what Biden plans on doing. your estimation is that he didn't think the japanese could pull off a devastating strike, so he schemed to allow them to make a devastating strike to get the country riled up for war. as for how the honolulu paper "got the attack right" they were reacting to the general political climate. they had no inside information whatsoever. and it was a lot less investment for them to print a paper than it would have been for Kimmel to send a fleet out in speculation that it would find the japanese fleet and get shot at so the war could start. and keep in mind that the expectation was that the Japanese were going to try to take over territory, because that is what they had been doing everywhere else. and the reason the carriers were out is that enterprise had delivered marines and planes to Wake island, and wasn't back yet. Lexington had delivered planes to Midway and wasn't back yet. Saratoga was en route to NAS San Diego to pick up planes after being repaired in Seattle. Yorktown, Ranger, and Wasp were in the atlantic, and Horet wasn't in service, yet. but let's play your game. Kimmel knew the attack was coming, and yet, he did not put the fleet and personnel on alert. his excuse for this was that he didn't know the attack was coming because Washington hadn't told him it was coming. why then did he take the precautionary fleet maneuvers you credit him with? Roosevelt could tell what was going on, yet he didn't know the japanese could attack the fleet in harbor or that they could have destroyed the fuel reserves if they'd thought to do so. but he knew they were going to attack and destroy the fleet in pearl harbor an chose to allow it to happen. the problem here, as I see it, is that you're starting your thesis with "given that Roosevelt conspired to allow the pearl harbor attack to happen..." and the reason why that is a problem is that it isn't a given. you're throwing out disconnected and sometimes contradictory statements, that aren't always completely objective, and for the most part, those that are verifiable don't rule out any other theory. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 21, 2020 20:58:45 GMT
If you want to put it like that, sort of I suppose.
Almost. Let's remove the word "devastating".
Since he wouldn't likely think their strike to be devastating, then their strike would be just a strike from a certain pre-"Pearl Harbor" point of view.
Thus, your opening volley (to more match my line of thought) should read more like this:
And, as to the rest you've said, Kimmel heard the reports that the Japanese were six days out just like the rest of the island heard. So he put on a maneuver to get the fleet on the ocean, heading to a northern island. It likely wasn't a "Alarm!" alert because it needed to be somewhat stealthy (as stealthy as a fleet could be... just move them without a lot of commotion and hurry, I suppose) But, when Washington found out, Kimmel was ordered back to Pearl.
Likely, he was ordered to go back, shut down, don't bother with the Japanese movements. I (FDR) am on the situation. I have them in discussions. There will be no attack on us. I have your back.
Shut down, return to Pearl. Shut off the radar. What have you.
True, it's speculation. Speculation I hope matches what Biden unfolds for us.
That's it.
Speculation.
Speculation built upon available records that I linked you to elsewhere in this thread, now pounded deep down in this endless stack thanks to you and me. Speculation using some level of reasoning given the outcome seen.
I'm thinking this thread is merely earning me some enemies. That's unfortunate. Because I thought an open minded discussion of what Biden could be up to in order to clear Kimmel's name was in order.
That hasn't happened I'm sorry to say. So perhaps I should just get this boat anchor off of this site.
Reply with a thumbs up if you like the idea of this thread being removed. If it appears all previous participants in this thread "like" the idea of its removal, then let's get it off of here. Okay?
Thanks.
By the way, I borrowed Feynman's Scientific method... first you guess it.
See here:
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 21, 2020 22:05:53 GMT
News outlets then, as now, use sensationalist attention grabbing headlines. They can also do maths, and while the full capabilities of the Japanese Navy were not known in the West. They did have some fairly accurate information about the speed and range of their ships and aircraft; I actually have a book on aircraft from late 1941, the USA was listed as a 'neutral' country, the Spitfire listed was the Mk V but it also included the 'new' Fw 190. The entries on the Japanese carrier aircraft are minimal, but where they do list range and speed they are not that far off the mark.
So a Hawaii newspaper reporting that 'The Japanese will attack in 6 days' would simply be a case of knowing that the Japanese fleet was a sea and when it had left, doing some basic maths, and realizing that if the Fleet were heading for Pearl they would be in a position to attack six days after the paper was published.
I can't find a copy of the paper in question from 1st December with a quick search. Since I would like to take a look at how it is actually worded.
It does appear as if there was a report that the Japanese would attack Pearl. However this was A; A Rumor (which would explain why Pearl was on alert) passed on via a South American diplomat. B; The rumour was that the attack would take place 'In the case of a break with the United States'. This is important, if true, as it would translate as 'after a declaration of War' or at the very least 'After US diplomats were kicked out of Japan'. Or in other words the US would have good reason to think they would get some warning in advance, at least enough to get the bulk of the fleet out to sea before an attack could take place.
In regards Kimmel's actions, specifically him moving some of the ships mentioned earlier. Washington overriding him may have simply been a case of them thinking this was overly alarmist and, given the rumors noted above, unnecessary. Indeed if you take the line that the US would get some warning in advance, and thus be able to get the fleet to sea before the Japanese were in a position to attack. Then effectively splitting the fleet may have been seen as a bad idea in regards being able to quickly bring the fleet together as a single force. The concern might be that even with warning the Japanese might end up catching the fleet divided and defeat or at least inflict serious damage on one of the two groups.
It's easy to say 'They shouldn't have done this' and 'Overruling the local commander, who probably understands the local situation better than personal thousands of miles away' were mistakes. However given the thinking and information available at the time this would make sense. That some of these assumptions and information were (badly) wrong is only something that could be known after the fact.
If there was a conspiracy against Kimmel it is highly likely that it was senior officers and politicians trying to hide the fact that they were the ones who screwed up. Kimmel, as the Local commander, seems to have taken the view that rumor or not it made sense to prepare for the worst as was his duty and responsibility. His superiors however showed poor judgement in overriding him as his decisions would have no effect on the political or strategic position of the US in and of themselves. It would have been one thing to order him not to take his full force to sea, which could have been seen as an aggressive act and started a war. It is another to counter orders which were entirely defensive and precautionary with no risk of being viewed as aggressive even by the Japanese.
On this light throwing Kimmel under the Battleship makes sense; and is VERY unfair. But it still doesn't support any notion that the attack was 'allowed' to go ahead.
Indeed I would argue that the opposite was true; As has been noted even if the US WANTED and NEEDED the Japanese to attack first that does not mean that they wanted or needed the attack to be successful. Indeed the opposite is true, since as also noted, it would make sense to put your forces in a position where an attacking force is basically flying into a trap. Beating off an attack, and with heavy losses to the attacker, is both politically and strategically more important. Tactically it is also the better option, as there is a chance that you would then be in a position to immediately counterattack. In this light actually splitting the fleet at Pearl and mooring a chunk of it elsewhere is exactly what you'd want to do. If the attackers focus on the harbor the second group is going to be unscathed while if they try and attack both groups they will have to split up their forces which will reduce how much damage they can actually do.
That STILL however fails to explain why you could be assured that the fuel tanks would not be hit. Your wonderful battlefleet is, as the Japanese ended up showing in great detail, useless if you have no fuel for them.
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