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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Jun 23, 2016 14:00:08 GMT
Always show your work. Technically, the question should be 'Solve for x'...
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 23, 2016 14:01:56 GMT
To bring us back on topic...
I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue.
Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms.
But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it.
Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male).
Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable.
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2016 14:24:24 GMT
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 23, 2016 14:25:49 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. First, this isn't Sweden. We are under no obligation to accept other countries' morals or values just because "they allow it over there." My second point is that I'm not concerned about adults deciding to share the same sauna. My worry is high school girls being FORCED to share a shower with a biological male.
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2016 14:26:15 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. isn't that what teens do?
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2016 14:31:44 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. First, this isn't Sweden. We are under no obligation to accept other countries' morals or values just because "they allow it over there." My second point is that I'm not concerned about adults deciding to share the same sauna. My worry is high school girls being FORCED to share a shower with a biological male. you are correct in that - one country's mores are different from another's. and in our country nudity in the opposite physical gender is considered sexual. - and delivering images of a naked male to an underage female is illegal.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Jun 23, 2016 14:38:48 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats }
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2016 14:55:42 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } I think it is more that a significant portion of the early US colonists were religious emigrants from a culture that was somewhat puritanical in general. remember that Americans are descended from a culture that once viewed bare ankles as scandalously indecent. I knew a guy who worked in early tech support for IBM, were if it was VERY hot in the room he was working in, he might unbutton and roll back his shirt sleeves, but coming to work in a short sleeved shirt was not allowed.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 23, 2016 22:12:46 GMT
Early days at IBM, you wore "the uniform." White shirt, black suit, narrow black or dark blue tie. That was the dress code. If you didn't like it, you got to go work elsewhere.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2016 6:43:10 GMT
When interviewing engineers, occasionally, one of them would make an error on a test question. That didn't disqualify them. Instead, we would work the problem together to find the error. How they analyzed and corrected the problem (especially working with me) told me more whether they were hireable or not--it gave me more info about their thought processes than if they had just written down the right answer. What did disqualify them was if they couldn't see their error, or refused to admit the obvious. When interviewing bar staff, I always asked them to change a barrel in front of me. Its the how they do it that counts. For the ones who lean back when disengaging the barrel tap, they get hired. Knowing that the tap can shoot off with some force is important... Anyone who knows that has the right level of experience I wanted. Not being able to change a barrel?.. you may be the nicest person in the world, but when the Manager or Owner is having his meal and a call "Can you change the barrel for me" is one of the most annoying parts of being off duty...
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 24, 2016 14:55:47 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } Devil's Advocate again, on two fronts: (Hey, this is kinda fun. Who would guess that a guy called "Loki" would like being a Devil's Advocate... ) Rape may or not be related to the issue; perhaps more gun availability as in the US might mitigate it. But even if that's a point, I chose Sweden because that's the first mixed gender bathing environment I found. I forgot some parts of Japan, whose crime rate is pretty small last time I checked. There have been mixed gender nudist/naturalist colonies in the US for years. They seem to survive without needing to be periodically raided, and in that case, kids of all ages are exposed to nudity. Likewise nude beaches. Skin is skin. It's not literally naturally offensive; it's just our backwards cultural mores. Just ask the hippies from the 60s.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 24, 2016 15:16:49 GMT
My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } Devil's Advocate again, on two fronts: (Hey, this is kinda fun. Who would guess that a guy called "Loki" would like being a Devil's Advocate... ) Rape may or not be related to the issue; perhaps more gun availability as in the US might mitigate it. But even if that's a point, I chose Sweden because that's the first mixed gender bathing environment I found. I forgot some parts of Japan, whose crime rate is pretty small last time I checked. There have been mixed gender nudist/naturalist colonies in the US for years. They seem to survive without needing to be periodically raided, and in that case, kids of all ages are exposed to nudity. Likewise nude beaches. Skin is skin. It's not literally naturally offensive; it's just our backwards cultural mores. Just ask the hippies from the 60s. You have a choice. You can go to a nude beach or you can not. Must I say again. Accepting opposite sex nudity is fine. Forcing underage girls to accept it is not.
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 24, 2016 15:29:58 GMT
Devil's Advocate: Well, that's just your provincial puritanism rearing it's ugly head. You'll hurt those poor children by not exposing them; you'll stunt their emotional development!
Even the ancient Romans accepted public nudity as normal, if I recall correctly. In fact, they supposedly encouraged it as it promoted good exercise habits to stay in shape and be "presentable".
Why are we crippling our young boys and girls by giving them complexes about something so fundamental to existence? Is it not a form of child abuse to teach them to overreact emotionally to just seeing a naked person?
Wouldn't it be better if they would simply ignore nudity so it causes no trauma? Even now, I bet you'd prefer that if an underage girl saw a naked man, she shrugged it off as "no big deal" instead of ending up with PTSD and in therapy for decades.
Better to insist on nondiscrimination. It'll result in a healthier reaction to nudity. Maybe not in this generation, but in the next.
After all, a short time ago, sharing even water coolers with other races was considered improper in some areas. We stomped that out, and we can stomp this out as well.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Jun 24, 2016 15:37:13 GMT
My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } Devil's Advocate again, on two fronts: (Hey, this is kinda fun. Who would guess that a guy called "Loki" would like being a Devil's Advocate... ) I think those horns on your helmet are starting to get to your head. Nudists do have a hard time concealing weapons.
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2016 15:46:10 GMT
Devil's Advocate: Well, that's just your provincial puritanism rearing it's ugly head. You'll hurt those poor children by not exposing them; you'll stunt their emotional development! Even the ancient Romans accepted public nudity as normal, if I recall correctly. In fact, they supposedly encouraged it as it promoted good exercise habits to stay in shape and be "presentable". Why are we crippling our young boys and girls by giving them complexes about something so fundamental to existence? Is it not a form of child abuse to teach them to overreact emotionally to just seeing a naked person? Wouldn't it be better if they would simply ignore nudity so it causes no trauma? Even now, I bet you'd prefer that if an underage girl saw a naked man, she shrugged it off as "no big deal" instead of ending up with PTSD and in therapy for decades. Better to insist on nondiscrimination. It'll result in a healthier reaction to nudity. Maybe not in this generation, but in the next. After all, a short time ago, sharing even water coolers with other races was considered improper in some areas. We stomped that out, and we can stomp this out as well. devil's rebuttal: forcing people to pretend to accept situations that are personally offensive to them is tantamount to emotional abuse. forcing people to accept other people's exhibitionism simply enables exhibitionists.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Jun 24, 2016 15:52:55 GMT
Why Do We Have Men's and Women's Bathrooms Anyway?It's not as inherent as you might think... It wasn't because of modesty, it was because lawmakers saw women as gentle butterflies... So, technically, aren't separate bathrooms actually a form of segregation?
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 24, 2016 17:26:49 GMT
And what happened to the ancient Romans? Let's just turn them over to a couple of pedophiles for a night. Keeps them from getting complexes.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 25, 2016 6:09:36 GMT
Fact check time. Good or bad, we as a society in the west HAVE separated toilet facilities. We are bought up to respect that. Public Nudity depends on how far from the beach you are as to if you accept bikini as acceptable... if you wore a bikini in new york city centre, it may be seen as unacceptable, but in California, its daily wear for many.
Some religions demand various forms of coverage, your average Quaker wont accept Bikini as much as your average full Burka Muslim.
Should we change the current system?. That is an entirely different question. Can we "Force" the issue without that discussion?. Absolutely NOT.
And for the record, the Scandeweigian countries that allow mixed bathing do that "Behind closed doors", and so did the Romans, they had bath houses, and it was considered implied permission when you enter those bath houses that you accepted mixed nudity. In current Scadeweigian places, you dont just strip naked and jump in, there is a more or less formal introduction to who you are first, and then all parties must agree.
In My OWN opinion, it should be done on a consensus. No one should be "Forced". You attract more flies with honey than vinegar?...
Make it available, yes, police it well to deter nonces, as in have security staff/cleaners on site, to deal with incidences, and see how it goes, but have a smaller room either side of each sex for those who just aint ready yet to get their bits out in front of a mixed crowd.
And lastly, I have an aversion to the giggle-girl thing. There is a certain brand of early teenager young female person who giggle at the slightest provocation.... I would NOT feel happy using a rest room if they were anywhere close. I find them offensive as much as they find a middle-aged overweight predator who leers at them offensive... Especially when they point and giggle at "anything" just for a lark.
Yeah, some of us Men feel as much sensitive about being partially naked in front of Women as the reverse case. I said it, I named the almost invisible elephant hiding not quite in the corner of the room....
Especially us "Not exactly in the best physical condition" members.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 25, 2016 11:58:11 GMT
To bring us back on topic... I have to confess I'm ambivalent on the issue. Personally, I feel uncomfortable disrobing in mixed gender locker rooms. But to be the Devil's Advocate, there are cultures in the world that think nudity is nothing important. In fact, Sweden has a long history of coed, full nudity saunas, I'm told. Why should this be a big deal? It's just skin; we've all got it, and we should all get over it. Next month I'm going to be visiting friends in Seattle. This is the same group with a chip-on-her/his-shoulder transgendered teen I met previously (female to male). Last time, I did notice people were tiptoeing on eggshells around the issue. I think the teen was enjoying trying to make others uncomfortable. My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } Just did a little additional digging on this and found a Norwegian site that may offer an explanation for this statistic ( link - Feel free to follow that if you can read Norwegian). In 2005, Sweden made changes to the law that drastically changed the definition of the word "rape". Prior to this law change, offenses that are now classified as "rape" would have been classified as "sexual exploitation". The older classification of "sexual exploitation" included everything from feeling someone up against their will (even when fully clothed) to inappropriately touching someone who's sleeping or otherwise impaired (drunk, sick, injured, handicapped etc.). In most countries it's not rape until there's penetration. Every other kind of unwanted sexual contact is classified as "sexual exploitation", "sexual assault" or some other variation, but not as rape. It is in Sweden and every report of such an offense makes it into the statistics as a reported rape. Swedish police also register each instance of rape, so if one victim is raped ten times by the same offender, ten rapes are registered in the statistics. Most other countries will only register that as one case of repeated rape. Furthermore, in an attempt to both make victims feel more comfortable going to the police and to get a better statistical view of how many reported cases there are, any report of rape now has to be registered as soon as it's made. It doesn't matter if it turns out later that it's a different type of offense that isn't classified as rape, or even if no crime has been committed at all. Those facts are added in during the investigation, so the statistics on rapes in Sweden reflect the number of reports - which has naturally gone up since this change in law took effect - not the number of convictions, or even the actual number of rapes committed. In most other countries, you wait until some sort of investigation has taken place before you register the offense and it makes it into the statistics. For rape, this has often led to officers making judgement calls without actually investigating anything at all, because the officer either decides the victim is lying or "was asking for it" and the case ends right there without ever getting reported. The Swedes wanted to end this practice and the idea behind the "take a report right away" approach is to force officers to investigate, whether they personally believe there's reason to or not. If your precinct has 200 reports of rape in the last year, but you can only produce 40 case files showing thorough investigation, you're going to have some explaining to do on your annual review. Similarly, if you have case files showing investigation of all 200, but 180 of them come to the conclusion that they're false reports, someone might start looking into how you handle rape cases. So, yes. Sweden has more reported rapes per capita than the US, but that's because 1. The definition of what constitutes rape is much broader in Sweden than in most other countries 2. Reports make it into the statistics as soon as they're made, regardless of what the outcome of the investigation might be 3. Each instance of rape is recorded as a single case, even when one victim is repeatedly raped by the same perpetrator, which can easily lead to one victim being represented multiple times in the stats 4. All of the above has led to an increase in reports, because victims feel more confident they'll be taken seriously and that their cases will actually be investigated - which in turn has also led to a decrease in false reports, by the way, as people are less likely to make them when they know the police will actually be investigating properly
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2016 12:31:16 GMT
My thought process originally wanted to believe that this may be due to people feeling safer in regards to sexual assualt in Sweden, but then I looked for statistics and they paint a much different picture. Reported cases of rape (2011) Sweden: 5,960 United States: 84,767 So far, statistics support the idea that, perhaps, Sweden is a safer place. Until you place the numbers in context to populations... Rapes per million people (2011) Sweden: 635.52 United States: 274.04 Rape victims as percentage of population (2011) Sweden 1.1% United States 0.4% Perhaps, it's tradition and a lack of inhibition that has the Swedish still continuing this practice? {Source: Country vs country: Sweden and United States compared: Crime stats } Just did a little additional digging on this and found a Norwegian site that may offer an explanation for this statistic ( link - Feel free to follow that if you can read Norwegian). In 2005, Sweden made changes to the law that drastically changed the definition of the word "rape". Prior to this law change, offenses that are now classified as "rape" would have been classified as "sexual exploitation". The older classification of "sexual exploitation" included everything from feeling someone up against their will (even when fully clothed) to inappropriately touching someone who's sleeping or otherwise impaired (drunk, sick, injured, handicapped etc.). In most countries it's not rape until there's penetration. Every other kind of unwanted sexual contact is classified as "sexual exploitation", "sexual assault" or some other variation, but not as rape. It is in Sweden and every report of such an offense makes it into the statistics as a reported rape. Swedish police also register each instance of rape, so if one victim is raped ten times by the same offender, ten rapes are registered in the statistics. Most other countries will only register that as one case of repeated rape. Furthermore, in an attempt to both make victims feel more comfortable going to the police and to get a better statistical view of how many reported cases there are, any report of rape now has to be registered as soon as it's made. It doesn't matter if it turns out later that it's a different type of offense that isn't classified as rape, or even if no crime has been committed at all. Those facts are added in during the investigation, so the statistics on rapes in Sweden reflect the number of reports - which has naturally gone up since this change in law took effect - not the number of convictions, or even the actual number of rapes committed. In most other countries, you wait until some sort of investigation has taken place before you register the offense and it makes it into the statistics. For rape, this has often led to officers making judgement calls without actually investigating anything at all, because the officer either decides the victim is lying or "was asking for it" and the case ends right there without ever getting reported. The Swedes wanted to end this practice and the idea behind the "take a report right away" approach is to force officers to investigate, whether they personally believe there's reason to or not. If your precinct has 200 reports of rape in the last year, but you can only produce 40 case files showing thorough investigation, you're going to have some explaining to do on your annual review. Similarly, if you have case files showing investigation of all 200, but 180 of them come to the conclusion that they're false reports, someone might start looking into how you handle rape cases. So, yes. Sweden has more reported rapes per capita than the US, but that's because 1. The definition of what constitutes rape is much broader in Sweden than in most other countries 2. Reports make it into the statistics as soon as they're made, regardless of what the outcome of the investigation might be 3. Each instance of rape is recorded as a single case, even when one victim is repeatedly raped by the same perpetrator, which can easily lead to one victim being represented multiple times in the stats 4. All of the above has led to an increase in reports, because victims feel more confident they'll be taken seriously and that their cases will actually be investigated - which in turn has also led to a decrease in false reports, by the way, as people are less likely to make them when they know the police will actually be investigating properly I was wondering if rate of reporting was a factor. addendum: this would be illustrated by the statistic that Parkinsons is listed as a cause death in Oregon at much higher rates than it is listed as a factor in California. - the reason being that California only lists the first cause of death while Oregon lists all contributing factors.
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